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STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS  
BUREAU OF PROFESSIONAL LICENSING  
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PUBLIC HEARING  
TUESDAY, MARCH 9, 2021  
AT ABOUT 1:00 P.M.  
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HELD VIA ZOOM TELECONFERENCE  
LANSING, MICHIGAN  
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RE:  
Public Health Code - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-109 LR)  
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HEARING FACILITATOR:  
DENA MARKS  
Bureau of Professional Licensing  
611 W. Ottawa Street  
Lansing, Michigan 48909  
18 ALSO PRESENT: Kerry Przybylo  
Stephanie Wysack  
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REPORTED BY:  
Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315  
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Opening Statement - Dena Marks  
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COMMENTS:  
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Victoria Dinkin  
Mark McWilliams  
James Blundo  
Michelle Mertic  
Christine Farrell  
Rhonda Dailey  
Michael Joy  
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13 Closing Statement - Dena Marks  
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Tuesday, March 9, 2021  
At 1:00 p.m.  
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MS. MARKS: Good afternoon. My name is  
Dena Marks, and I am an analyst for the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing in the Department of Licensing and  
Regulatory Affairs. I will be conducting the hearing  
today.  
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This is a public hearing on the proposed  
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administrative rules entitled "Public Health Code -  
General Rules". We are conducting the hearing as  
required by the Administrative Procedures Act to allow  
the public to comment on the proposed changes to this  
rule set. As with all other public hearings on draft  
rule sets, the only items discussed during this hearing  
will be the proposed changes to the rule set. This  
hearing will not be covering any questions or discussions  
on any other issues.  
We are calling this hearing to order at  
1:00 p.m. on March 9, 2021, via Zoom to comply with  
statutorily required measures designed to help prevent  
the spread of Coronavirus 2019, known as COVID-19. The  
notice of public hearing was published in three  
newspapers of general circulation, the Grand Rapids  
Press, the Flint Journal, and the Mining Journal on  
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February 12, 2021, as well as the Michigan Register,  
Issue No. 2-2021, published on February 15, 2021.  
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All comments should relate directly to  
the proposed rules. If you have questions about the  
rules, you may place your comments on the record and the  
Department will review and can consider them. If you  
have suggested changes to the proposed rules, please  
indicate the specific reasons why the changes would be in  
the public interest.  
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We will take comments in the following  
manner.  
For those using the Video Conference Portion,  
not calling in on a telephone, please use the  
"Raise Your Hand" feature in Zoom. I will call  
on individuals to speak and they will be unmuted  
at that time.  
For participants that are available only by  
telephone, we will ask if you wish to make a  
comment after the video participants have  
finished.  
If you have a comment but do not wish to speak,  
please note the Department will also accept  
written statements e-mailed or postmarked to  
BPL-BoardSupport@Michigan.gov until 5:00 p.m.  
today.  
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If you have previously submitted comments  
in writing to the Bureau, it is not necessary for you to  
repeat your comments on the record today. Comments made  
in writing will be reviewed and considered by the  
Department in the same manner as comments made during  
this public hearing.  
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Those making comments during this hearing  
should clearly and slowly say and spell your name and  
advise if you are speaking on behalf of an organization.  
We will limit comments to three minutes per person.  
Please remember that only one person should speak at a  
time.  
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The Department staff from the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing here today includes me, Kerry  
Przybylo, and Stephanie Wysack.  
Is there anyone who wishes to make  
comment about the Public Health Code - General Rules at  
this time?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Again, if you wish to --  
this is Kerry Przybylo. If you wish to speak, please use  
the "Raise Your Hand" feature in the reactions button at  
the bottom of your screen.  
I'm not seeing anybody raising their  
hands, so we'll go to those that are on the telephone.  
If you wish to speak and you are calling in on the  
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telephone, please hit *6 to unmute yourself so that we  
may hear your comment.  
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I see that a few of us -- a few attendees  
just connected to audio. If you just connected to audio  
and you wish to speak and make a comment about the rules,  
please press *6 on your telephone to unmute yourself, if  
you're calling in on your phone as well. If you're  
calling in on -- if you're attending by video, please use  
the reaction button at the bottom to "Raise Your Hand".  
Okay. We have some comments. So  
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first -- oh, boy. Okay. The first person that I see  
is -- they lowered their hands. Their hands were raised  
but then they, then they lowered their hands.  
MS. MARKS: It looks like maybe Victoria  
has a comment.  
VICTORIA DINKIN: Hi. I have a general  
question. I apologize, I just --  
MS. MARKS: I'm sorry, Victoria, could  
you please state and spell your first and last name?  
VICTORIA DINKIN: Sure. Victoria Dinkin,  
D-i-n-k-i-n, Victoria is V-i-c-t-o-r-i-a.  
MS. MARKS: Thank you. Go ahead with  
your comments.  
VICTORIA DINKIN: Okay. I just recently  
learned about this in the past couple of days, so I'm  
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sorry, I apparently missed out on something. My  
understanding is that this is for a hearing to consider  
two changes; one is to change the date of license renewal  
and one is to add another requirement for licensure or  
renewal. My concern or question really deals with the  
licensure date change. Is there consideration given  
for -- in other words, right now in my profession we  
renew towards the end of the year. If that is to be  
changed, let's say my date of initial license application  
and effectiveness was in July, is that going to become  
effective as of this year or will it be effective next  
year; is it going to be a prorated amount? And what was  
the logic behind changing that date? I read what was  
written here, but it still doesn't seem like that makes  
an effective difference to me, so I was just concerned  
about that. Thank you.  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: All right. Is there  
anybody else who wishes to make a comment about the  
rules? Please "Raise Your Hand" with the reaction  
button, or to unmute yourself, please hit *6.  
Looks like Mark McWilliams has a comment.  
Go ahead, Mark. You need to unmute yourself first,  
please.  
MARK McWILLIAMS: Sure. Is that better?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Much better.  
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MARK McWILLIAMS: Great. Thank you. My  
name is Mark McWilliams, M-a-r-k M-c-W-i-l-l-i-a-m-s.  
represent Disability Rights Michigan. We are the  
federally-mandated protection and advocacy agency  
advocating for people with disabilities, and as part of  
that work also find ourselves involved in issues  
involving racial equity.  
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Disability Rights Michigan is part of  
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a -- part of a collaborative of organizations working  
with people with disabilities that has looked at  
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cultural, developing cultural and linguistic competency,  
and for that reason, we support the rule on requiring  
implicit bias training for healthcare providers, we  
believe that that's a serious problem and in all aspects  
of the professional practice, not just in healthcare, but  
believe that the requirements are really important to  
improve services to black, indigenous, and people of  
color.  
We have three suggestions which we will  
submit in writing to improve the rule. One is -- relates  
to the record and making sure that the community is  
consulted, including the people who are most affected by  
the rule, that the training requirement actually would be  
increased in terms of the number of hours, and that there  
be explicit reference to addressing racism and ethnicity  
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issues in the training standards themselves. Thank you.  
MS. MARKS: I'm not seeing anyone else;  
are you, Kerry?  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: No.  
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MS. MARKS: If there are no other persons  
who wish to speak at this time, we'll take a ten-minute  
recess to see if others join us that would like to make  
comments. Thank you.  
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(At 1:10 p.m., there was a brief recess.)  
(Brief discussion held off the record.)  
THE REPORTER: Are we back on the record?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Yes. Hold on just one  
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second. Lori, yes, we are going to go back on the record  
because there is a comment, but we're waiting for  
Mr. Blundo to unmute himself before he can speak.  
JAMES BLUNDO: I have done that.  
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apologize, for some reason my computer won't let me raise  
my hand.  
MS. MARKS: No problem. So we're going  
to go back on the record to take additional comments at  
this time.  
Mr. Blundo, go ahead with your name and  
spelling, please.  
JAMES BLUNDO: My name is James Blundo,  
J-a-m-e-s B-l-u-n-d-o. I'm the Executive Director of the  
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Michigan Mental Health Counselors Association, and I'm  
going to read you a letter we are sending to you.  
On behalf of the Michigan Mental Health  
Counselors Association --  
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THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, sir. Please,  
if you're going to read, you will have to slow down.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Yes.  
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JAMES BLUNDO: Oh, I'm so sorry.  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: We're taking this -- a  
court reporter is transcribing this, so you --  
(Multiple speakers.)  
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JAMES BLUNDO: Oh, I'm sorry. I gotcha.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: -- so please slow down,  
please. Thank you.  
JAMES BLUNDO: I should know that by now.  
I'm sorry.  
On behalf of the Michigan Mental Health  
Counselors Association, I would like to thank you for the  
opportunity to provide comment on the proposed implicit  
bias training Public Health Code - General Rule Set  
2020-109 LR.  
MMHCA, as we are referred, M-M-H-C-A,  
applauds the Department of Licensing and Regulatory  
Affairs for the outstanding stakeholders engagement  
process, including the implementation, curriculum, and  
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partnership used to develop the recommendations for the  
rules and ensure the intent and impact of Governor  
Whitmer's implicit bias training executive order is  
ultimately realized. We do, however, recommend, once the  
rules are finalized, that the Department compile and  
maintain the list of eligible training programs Michigan  
licensed healthcare professionals may choose from to meet  
the State's implicit bias training requirements.  
Thank you again for this opportunity to  
provide comment and for all the Department's efforts  
throughout this inclusive and collaborative rules  
process. Please allow this letter to serve as MMHCA's  
formal communication of our full support for the draft  
implicit bias training Public Health Code - General Rule  
Set.  
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Sincerely, James Blundo.  
I hope I said that slow enough. I'm  
sorry.  
THE REPORTER: Yes. Thank you.  
JAMES BLUNDO: Are we set? Thank you.  
MS. MARKS: I see Michelle Mertic also  
has her hand raised. Michelle.  
MICHELLE MERTIC: (Inaudible).  
THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, you're going to  
have to speak louder or into your microphone, please.  
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MICHELLE MERTIC: Can you hear me now?  
THE REPORTER: It's not great, but go  
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ahead.  
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MICHELLE MERTIC: Okay. You know what,  
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I'll log out and come back in in a different way and  
you'll be able to hear me better.  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: Okay. Again, anybody else  
who wishes to make a comment, please "Raise Your Hand"  
using your reactions button at the bottom of the screen,  
or if you are phoning in, please hit *6 to unmute  
yourself.  
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(Brief pause.)  
MS. MARKS: Michelle, have you been able  
to reconnect?  
MICHELLE MERTIC: Yes, I have. Can you  
hear me okay?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Much better.  
MICHELLE MERTIC: Thank you. My name is  
Michelle, M-i-c-h-e-l-l-e, my last name is Mertic,  
spelled M-e-r-t-i-c. I wanted to ask for clarification  
on the implicit bias training, specifically where it says  
in the proposed rule about assessments. I was hoping for  
more clarification. Is that -- if that is assessments  
built in to the implicit bias training, can it be added  
as a pre-post test? And I also wanted to second what  
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Mr. Blundo said, if there could be a list of approved  
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trainings. And I'm the training coordinator for the  
Guidance Center in Southgate. Thank you.  
MS. MARKS: Is there anyone else who  
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would like to make a comment at this time? If so, please  
hit the reaction button, or if you're on your phone, hit  
*6 and speak.  
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I'm not seeing anyone else; are you,  
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Kerry?  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: No. I'm paging through  
all the attendees. I don't see any further indications  
that someone wishes to make a comment.  
MS. MARKS: All right. If there are no  
further comments at this time, I hereby declare the  
hearing closed.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Oh, wait. Christine  
Farrell.  
MS. MARKS: Christine Farrell.  
CHRISTINE FARRELL: Good afternoon.  
Sorry. I was trying to, like some of the others. My  
name is Christine Farrell, C-h-r-i-s-t-i-n-e, Farrell, F-  
as in Frank a-r-r-e-l-l. And my comment is also related  
to the implicit bias. It's under the Rule 4, No. 3,  
letter C, small i, where it says, training offered by  
nationally-recognized or state-recognized health-related  
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organization. I wondered if that could be revised to  
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broaden, instead of health-related, maybe a nonprofit  
organization that offers health, human services, or other  
kind of training. I think health-related organization is  
rather limiting, and I think there are a number of  
organizations, nonprofits, human services organizations,  
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or others that could offer implicit bias training.  
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think health-related organization might be too limiting.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Thank you, Christine.  
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CHRISTINE FARRELL: Thank you.  
MS. MARKS: Are there any other comments?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: I don't see any, Dena.  
Oh, Rhonda Dailey has a comment.  
RHONDA DAILEY: Hi. My name is Rhonda  
Dailey, that's spelled R-h-o-n-d-a, last name is D- as in  
doll a-i-l-e-y. And I wanted to know what is the next  
step in this process once this hearing is over and the  
comments are made, how long will it be and when will the  
rules take place?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Rhonda, this is the public  
hearing to receive comments on the rules. We're in the  
middle of the process, I guess you could say. We still  
need to review all the comments, and then once the draft  
is complete, it is sent over to the legislature to sit  
for 15 joint session days. That is kind of an  
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unpredictable amount of time because a joint session day  
is when both the House and the Senate are in session and  
take a vote. So that's kind of a nebulous timeframe, so  
I can't give you a real good estimate, but most likely,  
I'm guessing it will be in the fall sometime that they  
may finish the promulgation process. It's just a guess.  
Lots of other factors can impact that.  
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RHONDA DAILEY: Thank you for that  
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sincere response. I do have a question. For people that  
may have, you know, gone to implicit bias training even  
now or until the time that the rule is actually set in  
place, will that information or the training they've  
received count toward the new rule?  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: I think, if I remember  
correctly, the rule indicates that you have to take it  
within a certain amount of time before you apply for  
licensure. So you would have to look -- I don't remember  
off the top of my head what that is, but you'd have to  
look at that specifically. If it doesn't have a date in  
there, then generally speaking, the requirement happens  
when the rule becomes in effect, so you would have to  
take it from the day of promulgation forward, if the rule  
doesn't say something differently.  
MS. MARKS: Kerry, we should pause for a  
moment. Lori just sent me an email that she got kicked  
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off.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Okay.  
RHONDA DAILEY: Thank you.  
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(Brief discussion and pause to allow the court  
reporter to reconnect.)  
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THE REPORTER: I am back. Sorry. My  
computer just, whatever.  
MS. MARKS: Welcome back, Lori. Let us  
know when you're ready.  
THE REPORTER: I'm ready. Thanks.  
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Sorry.  
MS. MARKS: All right. Michael Joy had a  
comment. If you could unmute yourself, Michael.  
MICHAEL JOY: Hello. Thank you for  
taking my comment. I just have a question. Is there a  
process for, that someone has to go through to be able to  
offer implicit bias training as part of these rules?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Okay. Michael, just to be  
clear, this is a time to receive comments about the  
rules, it's not a question and answer session about the  
rules. But I believe that the rules have in there a way  
to become an approved sponsor to provide that program.  
MICHAEL JOY: Okay. Thank you.  
MS. MARKS: Is there anyone else who  
would like to make a comment?  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: Dena, I do not see any  
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further -- any further people raising their hand. Again,  
if you are calling in on your phone and wish to unmute  
yourself to speak, please hit *6.  
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MS. MARKS: Thank you for the comments  
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today. If there are no further comments at this time, I  
hereby declare the hearing closed. The record will  
remain open until 5:00 p.m. today for any comments you  
wish to share about the proposed rules, which may be  
mailed, or e-mailed to BoardSupport@Michigan.gov, so that  
would be BPL-BoardSupport@Michigan.gov. Thank you for  
attending the hearing.  
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(At 1:38 p.m., the public hearing concluded.)  
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STATE OF MICHIGAN )  
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COUNTY OF MACOMB  
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I, Lori Anne Penn, certify that this  
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transcript consisting of 18 pages is a complete, true,  
and correct record of the public hearing held via Zoom  
teleconference in this matter on Tuesday, March 9, 2021.  
I further certify that I am not  
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responsible for any copies of this transcript not made  
under my direction or control and bearing my original  
signature.  
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I also certify that I am not a relative  
or employee of or an attorney for a party; or a relative  
or employee of an attorney for a party; or financially  
interested in the action.  
March 11, 2021  
Date  
_________________ ___  
Lo
Non  
My Commission Expires June 15, 2025  
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