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STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS  
BUREAU OF PROFESSIONAL LICENSING  
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PUBLIC HEARING  
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THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 2021  
AT ABOUT 9:00 A.M.  
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G. MENNEN WILLIAMS BUILDING AUDITORIUM  
525 W. OTTAWA STREET  
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LANSING, MICHIGAN  
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RE: Behavior Analysts - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-112 LR)  
Physical Therapy - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-111 LR)  
PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANTS - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-116 LR)  
PSYCHOLOGY - GENERAL RULES  
(MOAHR #2020-127 LR)  
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20 HEARING FACILITATOR:  
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WESTON MacINTOSH  
Bureau of Professional Licensing  
611 W. Ottawa Street  
Lansing, Michigan 48909  
ALSO PRESENT: Kimmy Catlin  
25 REPORTED BY: Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315  
Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com  
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I N D E X  
2 Opening Statement - Weston MacIntosh  
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4 COMMENTS:  
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Mike Perkins - Physical Therapy  
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7 Closing Statement - Weston MacIntosh  
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Lansing, Michigan  
Thursday, September 9, 2021  
At 9:00 a.m.  
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MR. MacINTOSH: Good morning. My name is  
Weston MacIntosh, and I'm analyst for the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing in the Department of Licensing and  
Regulatory Affairs, and I will be conducting the hearing  
today.  
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This is a public hearing on proposed  
administrative rules entitled "Behavior Analysts -  
General Rules", "Physical Therapy - General Rules",  
"Physician's Assistants - General Rules", and "Psychology  
- General Rules". We are conducting this hearing under  
the authority of the Administrative Procedures Act,  
Public Act 306 of 1969, on behalf of the Department of  
Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Professional  
Licensing.  
We are calling this hearing to order at  
9:00 o'clock a.m. on September 9, 2021, at the G. Mennen  
Williams Building Auditorium at 525 West Ottawa Street in  
Lansing, Michigan. Publication of the notice of public  
hearing was in three newspapers of general circulation,  
including the Grand Rapids Press and the Flint Journal on  
August 24, 2021, the Mining Journal on August 19, 2021,  
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as well as the Michigan Register, Issue #15, published on  
September 1, 2021.  
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We are here today to receive your  
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comments on the proposed rules. If you wish to speak,  
please make sure you have signed in and said that you  
wish to speak. You may use the cards provided in the  
lobby for this purpose. I will organize the cards by  
rule set so that the comments for that profession are in  
a group together in the transcript. If you would like to  
testify and have not signed in, please do so now. For  
those of you who do not wish to sign in with a card, you  
may speak at the microphone once we have exhausted the  
stack of cards that you give to me.  
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If you have comments, please make sure  
that they relate directly to the proposed rules. If you  
have questions about the rules, please include your  
questions as part of your testimony for the Department's  
review. If you have suggested changes to the proposed  
rules, please include the specific reasons why the  
changes would be in the public interest.  
For the record, when you testify, please  
give us your name by spelling your name and the  
organization, if any, that you may be speaking for today.  
This will help the Department prepare the hearing record  
that will go before the Boards. You can give written  
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statements directly to me at the table. The Department  
will also accept written statements e-mailed or  
postmarked until 5:00 o'clock p.m. today.  
The Department staff from the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing includes Kimmy Catlin and myself.  
The first rule set that we will take  
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comments for are Behavior Analysts - General Rules. Is  
there anyone who would like to speak on the Behavior  
Analysts - General Rules? (No response.)  
The second set that we will take comments  
for are the Physical Therapy - General Rules. Is there  
anyone who would like to speak on the Physical Therapy -  
General Rules?  
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MIKE PERKINS: I would.  
MR. MacINTOSH: Yep, come on. And if you  
could state and spell your name.  
MIKE PERKINS: Certainly. Good morning.  
My name is Mike Perkins, P-e-r-k-i-n-s. I've never been  
to one of these hearings before, so maybe (inaudible) --  
COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, sir. So  
maybe?  
MIKE PERKINS: What's that?  
COURT REPORTER: I didn't understand what  
you said. So maybe?  
MIKE PERKINS: So I've never been to a  
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hearing before, so I'm not as maybe prepared legislative,  
however, I do come with comments about the memo that was  
put out in December of 2019 between MATS and the MPTA,  
which basically has affected the athletic training  
profession in the State of Michigan with regards to  
working in the physical therapy setting. Directly  
related under the direct supervision of a license or an  
unlicensed individual, based off of that memo, it was  
placed that now in a physical therapy setting, an  
athletic trainer is deemed unlicensed and is therefore  
basically looked as a glorified tech, which I take  
offense to after 23 years of a profession of successfully  
running a therapy clinic. Now the ax has fell on me and  
my profession has allowed me to not work in the physical  
therapy setting, no longer am I working because my  
employer is scared as what would be interpreted for an  
athletic trainer to treat patients. As much as I've done  
it for the last 23, me, as well as other athletic  
trainers in the clinics, have lost their jobs and thus  
are forced to find something else when really all we want  
to do is continue to help patients successfully in the  
clinic, in the outpatient clinical setting  
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orthopedically. And I wanted to arrive today to at least  
present my comments with regards to that; and if there  
was a way that the legislature and wording could be  
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changed so that the bulk of my profession can continue to  
do what we love to do, that is really what I'm here for.  
MR. MacINTOSH: Thank you for your  
comments.  
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MIKE PERKINS: Thank you.  
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MR. MacINTOSH: Are there any other  
comments on the Physical Therapy - General Rules?  
Hearing none.  
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Are there any comments on the Physician's  
Assistants - General Rules?  
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And hearing none.  
Are there any comments on the Psychology  
- General Rules? (No response.)  
If there are no other people who wish to  
speak at this time, we will take a short recess.  
(At 9:06 a.m., there was a 15-minute recess.)  
MR. MacINTOSH: If there are no further  
comments at this time, I hereby declare the hearing  
closed. The record will remain open until today at 5:00  
o'clock p.m. for any other comments you may wish to share  
about the proposed rules.  
Thank you for coming.  
(At 9:21 a.m., the public hearing concluded.)  
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1 STATE OF MICHIGAN )  
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2 COUNTY OF MACOMB )  
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I, Lori Anne Penn, certify that this  
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transcript consisting of 8 pages is a complete, true, and  
correct record of the proceedings held in the captioned  
matters on Thursday, September 9, 2021.  
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I further certify that I am not  
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responsible for any copies of this transcript not made  
under my direction or control and bearing my original  
signature.  
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I also certify that I am not a relative  
or employee of or an attorney for a party; or a relative  
or employee of an attorney for a party; or financially  
interested in the action.  
September 13, 2021  
_________________ _____  
Date  
Lor
Notan  
My Commission Expires June 15, 2025  
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