DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN

SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY,

RULES FOR FOSTER FAMILY AND GROUP

HOMES, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME I,

October 12, 2021

Prepared by

[email protected]om

Phone: 800.632.2720

Fax: 800.968.8653

www.networkreporting.com

Let us assist you GLOBALLY for all of your deposition needs.

October 12, 2021

STATE OF MICHIGAN

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY

PUBLIC HEARING - VOL. I

RULES FOR CHILD PLACING AGENCY RULES

235 South Grand Avenue, Lansing, Michigan

Tuesday, October 12, 2021, 9:00 a.m.

APPEARANCES:

For the Department of MS. MARY E. BRENNAN

Human and Human

Services:

State Administrative Manager and

Regulatory Affairs Officer

Michigan Department of Health and Human

Services

333 South Grand Avenue

Lansing, Michigan 48909

(517) 335-0745

Also Present:

RECORDED BY:

Angela Hull, Jessica VandenHeuvel

Marcy A. Klingshirn, CER 6924

Certified Electronic Recorder

Network Reporting Corporation

Firm Registration Number 8151

1-800-632-2720

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October 12, 2021

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

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Statement by Ms. Brennan . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Statement by Ms. Lara Bouse. . . . . . . . . . . . .

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October 12, 2021

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Lansing, Michigan

Tuesday, October 12, 2021 - 9:09 a.m.

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MS. BRENNAN: Good morning. It is now 9:09 a.m.

It is Tuesday, October 12th, 2021. We are on the record for

the first of two hearings for rule set 2020-02 HS, Child

Placing Agencies. My name is Mary Brennan. I am from the

DHHS Bureau of Legal Affairs and the Regulatory Affairs

Officer for the Department. To my left I would like to

introduce our subject matter experts for the hearing,

starting with Ms. Angie. Angie, introduce yourself and

please state your position with DHHS.

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MS. HULL: Angela Hull, program manager in the

Division of Child Welfare Licensing.

MS. BRENNAN: Thank you. Our other expert is Ms.

Jessica. Jessica, same?

MS. VANDENHEUVEL: Jessica VandenHeuvel, DCWL area

manager.

MS. BRENNAN: Thank you. Okay. Housekeeping

before we begin. The hearing will be recorded for the

purposes of transcription and transparency. Please approach

the podium if you would like to make a statement. Provide

your name, spell last name for the transcriptionist -- oh, I

forgot to introduce Ms. Marcy is our transcriptionist for

today -- and any organization you may be speaking on behalf

of, then provide your comment. One person at a time. While

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October 12, 2021

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your comments are invaluable to the public hearing, we ask

that you respect the public hearing process, please keep

comments respectable and not disrupt the hearing process for

all. This is a state building and we are required to wear

masks at all times to protect the public. Please follow

this mandate during your time in the building.

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There will be two 15-minute breaks, one at 10:00

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o'clock and one at 2:00 o'clock p.m., and one 45-minute

break at 12:00 o'clock noon. Restrooms, down the hall to

your right. Snack shop at the end of the hall to your

right. Right now they're currently offering packaged

snacks, popcorn, coffee, and bottled drinks. For lunch,

head straight down to Washington one block down and there

will be a variety of restaurants, coffee shops as well.

Comments for the public hearing ends Friday,

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October 15th. If you have further comments, please send

them to the [email protected] e-mail box.

Please note, any e-mail sent to a DHHS staff person

regarding comment to the public hearing and not sent to this

administrative rules e-mail box will not be considered for

public comment. Rule status is available at:

https://ars.apps.lara.state.mi.us. A copy of the hearing

transcript will be available at the adminrules

e-mail box. Please wait -- how long, two weeks?

REPORTER: (Nodding head in affirmative)

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MS. BRENNAN: Please wait two weeks before

requesting a comment (sic). Any questions before we start

taking public comment? Okay. The microphone is open for

public comment. Please approach if you would like to make a

comment at today's hearing.

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LARA BOUSE

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MS. LARA BOUSE: Good morning. Lara Bouse,

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B-o-u-s-e, Fostering Forward Michigan. Having worked in

conjunction with the Department in reviewing these rules and

reviewing them as intended today, I have three comments I'd

like to make or three rules I'd like to comment on.

The first one is 400.12328(1) on the Foster Home

Record. We would like to strike the word "electronic" as it

provides a barrier to non-contracted agencies to doing this

important work. We would like to have language that

suggests keeping the record in a manner as prescribed by the

Department instead. Rule 12 -- 400.12713 Adoption

Placement, we would like language added to maintain records

for all adoptions, not just those for children of the Child

Welfare System under DHHS. Rule 400.12403(3), we are

adamant that this language needs to remain and shall not be

changed. Not having this language has proven to reduce --

is proven to increase barriers. This language reduces

barriers for cooperation in cross agency placements now

known as borrowed beds, and allows foster homes more

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confidence in being able to do the same job consistently no

matter what agency they're working with.

And that's it. Otherwise, we're in full agreement

with the rules as intended.

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MS. BRENNAN: Thank you very much. Marcy, off the

record, please. 115627

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(Off the record)

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MS. BRENNAN: We're back on the record on 2020-02

HS, Child Placing Agencies. It is now 12:00 o'clock noon.

The public hearing for Tuesday, October 12th, 2021 has

ended. The next public hearing will be tomorrow, Wednesday,

October 13th, 2021, at 9:00 a.m. Thank you.

(Proceedings adjourned at 12:00 noon)

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October 12, 2021

Child 1:5 3:5,13

5:19 6:9

children 5:19

Good 3:3 5:7

Grand 1:6,13

3:17

mandate 4:6

manner 5:16

Marcy 1:18 3:23 6:5 proven 5:22,23

Mary 1:11 3:6

masks 4:5

matter 3:9 6:2

MDHHS-Admin...

4:17

Michigan 1:1,6,12

1:14 3:1 5:8

process 4:2,3

program 3:12

protect 4:5

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a.m 1:7 3:2,3 6:12

able 6:1

adamant 5:21

added 5:18

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CHILDREN'S 1:3

coffee 4:12,14

comment 3:25 4:19

4:21 5:2,3,4,5,11

comments 4:1,3,15

4:16 5:10

confidence 6:1

conjunction 5:9

considered 4:20

consistently 6:1

CONTENTS 2:1

cooperation 5:24

copy 4:22

hall 4:9,10

provide 3:21,25

provides 5:14

public 1:4 4:1,2,5,15

4:19,21 5:3,4 6:10

6:11

head 4:13,25

Health 1:2,12

hearing 1:4 3:9,19

4:1,2,3,15,19,22

5:5 6:10,11

hearings 3:5

Home 5:12

homes 5:25

adjourned 6:13

administrative 1:11

4:20

adminrules 4:23

Adoption 5:17

adoptions 5:19

Affairs 1:12 3:7,7

affirmative 4:25

agencies 3:6 5:14

6:9

agency 1:3,5 5:24

6:2

agreement 6:3

allows 5:25

Angela 1:16 3:12

Angie 3:10,10

APPEARANCES

1:10

approach 3:20 5:4

area 3:16

purposes 3:20

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microphone 5:3

morning 3:3 5:7

questions 5:2

Housekeeping 3:18

HS 3:5 6:9

https://ars.apps.la... name 3:6,22,22

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record 3:4 5:13,16

6:6,7,8

recorded 1:18 3:19

Recorder 1:18

records 5:18

4:22

needs 5:21

Corporation 1:19

cross 5:24

currently 4:11

Hull 1:16 3:12,12

Human 1:2,11,11

1:12

Network 1:19

Nodding 4:25

non-contracted

5:14

noon 4:9 6:9,13

note 4:18

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reduce 5:22

reduces 5:23

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DCWL 3:16

Department 1:2,11

1:12 3:8 5:9,17

DHHS 3:7,11 4:18

5:20

disrupt 4:3

Division 3:13

doing 5:14

important 5:15

increase 5:23

intended 5:10 6:4

introduce 3:9,10,23

invaluable 4:1

regarding 4:19

Registration 1:19

Regulatory 1:12 3:7

remain 5:21

REPORTER 4:25

Reporting 1:19

requesting 5:2

required 4:4

Number 1:19

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available 4:21,23

Avenue 1:6,13

o'clock 4:8,8,9 6:9

October 1:7 3:2,4

4:16 6:10,12

offering 4:11

Officer 1:12 3:8

oh 3:22

Okay 3:18 5:3

open 5:3

organization 3:24

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Jessica 1:16 3:15,15

3:16

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drinks 4:12

B-o-u-s-e 5:8

back 6:8

barrier 5:14

barriers 5:23,24

beds 5:25

respect 4:2

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job 6:1

respectable 4:3

restaurants 4:14

Restrooms 4:9

reviewing 5:9,10

right 4:10,11,11

rule 3:5 4:21 5:17

5:20

E 1:11

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keep 4:2

keeping 5:16

Klingshirn 1:18

known 5:25

e-mail 4:17,18,20,24

electronic 1:18 5:13

ended 6:11

ends 4:15

expert 3:14

behalf 3:24

block 4:13

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borrowed 5:25

bottled 4:12

Bouse 2:4 5:6,7,7

box 4:17,20,24

break 4:9

p.m 4:8

packaged 4:11

PAGE 2:2

person 3:25 4:18

Placement 5:18

placements 5:24

Placing 1:5 3:6 6:9

please 3:11,20 4:2,5 Services 1:2,3,12,13

4:16,18,24 5:1,4

6:6

podium 3:21

popcorn 4:12

position 3:11

prescribed 5:16

Present 1:16

Proceedings 6:13

experts 3:9

rules 1:5,5 4:20 5:9

5:11 6:4

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F

Firm 1:19

first 3:5 5:12

follow 4:5

forgot 3:23

Forward 5:8

foster 5:12,25

Fostering 5:8

Friday 4:15

full 6:3

language 5:15,18,21

5:22,23

Lansing 1:6,14 3:1

Lara 2:4 5:6,7,7

left 3:8

Legal 3:7

Licensing 3:13

long 4:24

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send 4:16

sent 4:18,19

breaks 4:7

Brennan 1:11 2:3

3:3,6,14,18 5:1

6:5,8

building 4:4,6

Bureau 3:7

set 3:5

shop 4:10

shops 4:14

sic 5:2

Snack 4:10

snacks 4:12

South 1:6,13

speaking 3:24

lunch 4:12

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CER 1:18

Certified 1:18

changed 5:22

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further 4:16

maintain 5:18

manager 1:11 3:12

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October 12, 2021

spell 3:22

staff 4:18

start 5:2

starting 3:10

state 1:1,11 3:11 4:4

statement 2:3,4 3:21

status 4:21

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9:00 1:7 6:12

9:09 3:2,3

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straight 4:13

strike 5:13

0-0-0- 6:15

subject 3:9

suggests 5:16

System 5:20

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1-800-632-2720

1:20

10:00 4:7

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115627 6:6

12 1:7 3:2 5:17

12:00 4:9 6:9,13

12th 3:4 6:10

13th 6:12

TABLE 2:1

Thank 3:14,18 6:5

6:12

three 5:10,11

time 3:25 4:6

times 4:5

today 3:24 5:10

today's 5:5

tomorrow 6:11

transcript 4:23

transcription 3:20

transcriptionist

3:22,23

transparency 3:20

Tuesday 1:7 3:2,4

6:10

15-minute 4:7

15th 4:16

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2:00 4:8

2020-02 3:5 6:8

2021 1:7 3:2,4 6:10

6:12

235 1:6

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333 1:13

two 3:5 4:7,24 5:1

335-0745 1:14

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VandenHeuvel 1:16

3:16,16

variety 4:14

VOL 1:4

400.12328(1) 5:12

400.12403(3) 5:20

400.12713 5:17

45-minute 4:8

48909 1:14

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517 1:14

wait 4:24 5:1

Washington 4:13

we're 6:3,8

wear 4:4

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weeks 4:24 5:1

Welfare 3:13 5:20

word 5:13

6924 1:18

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working 6:2

8151 1:19

Page 2

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN

SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY,

RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC

HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

Prepared by

[email protected]om

Phone: 800.632.2720

Fax: 800.968.8653

www.networkreporting.com

Let us assist you GLOBALLY for all of your deposition needs.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

STATE OF MICHIGAN

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY

PUBLIC HEARING - VOL. II

RULES FOR CHILD PLACING AGENCY RULES

235 South Grand Avenue, Lansing, Michigan

Wednesday, October 13, 2021, 9:00 a.m.

APPEARANCES:

For the Department of MS. MARY E. BRENNAN

Human and Human

Services:

State Administrative Manager and

Regulatory Affairs Officer

Michigan Department of Health and Human

Services

333 South Grand Avenue

Lansing, Michigan 48909

(517) 335-0745

Also Present:

RECORDED BY:

Angela Hull, Jessica VandenHeuvel

Marcy A. Klingshirn, CER 6924

Certified Electronic Recorder

Network Reporting Corporation

Firm Registration Number 8151

1-800-632-2720

Page 1

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

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PAGE

Statement by Ms. Brennan . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

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Lansing, Michigan

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Wednesday, October 13, 2021 - 9:03 a.m.

MS. BRENNAN: Good morning. It is now 9:03 a.m.

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on Wednesday, October 13th, 2021. We are on the record for

the second of two hearings for rule set 2020-02 HS, Child

Placing Agencies. My name is Mary Brennan. I'm from the

DHHS Bureau of Legal Affairs and the regulatory officer for

the Department. I would like to introduce our subject

matter experts for the hearing, starting with Angela on my

left.

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MS. HULL: Angela Hull, program manager with the

Division of Child Welfare Licensing.

MS. BRENNAN: Thank you. Our other expert is Ms.

Jessica.

MS. VANDENHEUVEL: Jessica VandenHeuvel, area

manager for Division of Child Welfare Licensing.

MS. BRENNAN: And our transcriptionist for today

is Ms. Marcy. Housekeeping notifications before we begin.

The hearing will be recorded for purposes of transparency

and transcription. Please approach the podium if you would

like to make a statement. Provide your name, spell your

last name for the transcriptionist and any organization you

may be speaking on behalf of, then provide your comment.

One person shall speak at a time. All your comments are

invaluable to the public hearing. We ask that you respect

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DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

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the public hearing process and keep comments respectable and

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not disrupt the hearing process for all. This is a state

building, we are required to wear masks at all times to

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protect the public. Please follow this mandate during your

time at this hearing.

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There will be one 15-minute break at 10:00 a.m.

and there will be one 45-minute break for lunch at 12:00

o'clock noon. Restrooms, down the hall to your right.

There's a snack shop at the end of the hall to your right.

It is offering free coffee -- very strong this morning --

and popcorn, and there are also wrapped up snacks and

bottles of soft drinks for your choosing. For lunch, if you

go straight down one block to Washington, on your left and

right there are a number of restaurants that you may enjoy

lunch at.

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Comments for the public hearing ends Friday,

October 15th. If you have any further comments, please send

them to the [email protected]. Please note, any

e-mail sent to a DHHS staff person regarding comment to this

public hearing and not sent to the e-mail box, adminrule

e-mail box, will not be considered for public comment. The

rule status is available at ars.apps.lara.state.mi.us. A

copy of the hearing transcript will be made available at the

administrative rule hearing e-mail box. Please wait two

weeks before requesting a copy. Are there any questions

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DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

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with regard to housekeeping? Does anyone wish to make a

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public comment at this time? Okay. Marcy, can you go off

the record until we have a comment? Thank you.

(Off the record)

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MS. BRENNAN: It is now 9:55 a.m. on October 13th,

2021. The panel will be on a 15-minute break. Thank you.

Off the record.

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(Off the record)

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MS. BRENNAN: Okay. We're back on the record on

2020-02 HS, Child Placing Agencies. It is now 10:16 a.m.

If anyone would like to make a public comment, please step

forward. Okay. Marcy, please go off the record.

REPORTER: Off.

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MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.

(Off the record)

MS. BRENNAN: We're back on the record on 2020-02

HS, Child Placing Agencies. It is now 12:00 o'clock noon.

We will be taking an hour break and we will resume with the

Foster Home rules at 1:00 o'clock. The Child Placing Agency

rule set has now been closed. Thank you.

(Proceedings concluded at 12:00 p.m.)

-0-0-0-

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DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

Department 1:2,11

1:12 3:8

DHHS 3:7 4:19

disrupt 4:2

Division 3:12,16

drinks 4:12

popcorn 4:11

Present 1:16

Proceedings 5:21

process 4:1,2

program 3:11

protect 4:4

provide 3:21,23

public 1:4 3:25 4:1,4

4:16,20,21 5:2,11

purposes 3:19

state 1:1,11 4:2

statement 2:3 3:21

status 4:22

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a.m 1:7 3:2,3 4:6 5:5

5:10

administrative 1:11

4:24

adminrule 4:20

Affairs 1:12 3:7

Agencies 3:6 5:10

5:17

Agency 1:3,5 5:19

Angela 1:16 3:9,11

APPEARANCES

1:10

approach 3:20

area 3:15

ars.apps.lara.stat...

4:22

available 4:22,23

Avenue 1:6,13

keep 4:1

Klingshirn 1:18

step 5:11

straight 4:13

strong 4:10

subject 3:8

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Lansing 1:6,14 3:1

left 3:10 4:13

Legal 3:7

Licensing 3:12,16

lunch 4:7,12,15

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E 1:11

e-mail 4:19,20,21,24

Electronic 1:18

ends 4:16

enjoy 4:14

expert 3:13

experts 3:9

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TABLE 2:1

Thank 3:13 5:3,6,14

5:20

time 3:24 4:5 5:2

times 4:3

today 3:17

transcript 4:23

transcription 3:20

transcriptionist

3:17,22

transparency 3:19

two 3:5 4:24

Q

M

manager 1:11 3:11

3:16

mandate 4:4

Marcy 1:18 3:18 5:2

5:12

Mary 1:11 3:6

masks 4:3

matter 3:9

MDHHS-Admin...

4:18

Michigan 1:1,6,12

1:14 3:1

questions 4:25

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record 3:4 5:3,4,7,8

5:9,12,15,16

recorded 1:18 3:19

Recorder 1:18

regard 5:1

regarding 4:19

Registration 1:19

regulatory 1:12 3:7

REPORTER 5:13

Reporting 1:19

requesting 4:25

required 4:3

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Firm 1:19

follow 4:4

forward 5:12

Foster 5:19

free 4:10

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back 5:9,16

behalf 3:23

block 4:13

bottles 4:12

box 4:20,21,24

break 4:6,7 5:6,18

Brennan 1:11 2:3

3:3,6,13,17 5:5,9

5:14,16

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Friday 4:16

further 4:17

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VandenHeuvel 1:16

3:15,15

morning 3:3 4:10

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go 4:13 5:2,12

Good 3:3

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VOL 1:4

respect 3:25

name 3:6,21,22

Network 1:19

noon 4:8 5:17

note 4:18

notifications 3:18

number 1:19 4:14

Grand 1:6,13

respectable 4:1

restaurants 4:14

Restrooms 4:8

resume 5:18

right 4:8,9,14

rule 3:5 4:22,24

5:20

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wait 4:24

Washington 4:13

We're 5:9,16

wear 4:3

Wednesday 1:7 3:2

3:4

weeks 4:25

Welfare 3:12,16

wish 5:1

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building 4:3

Bureau 3:7

hall 4:8,9

Health 1:2,12

hearing 1:4 3:9,19

3:25 4:1,2,5,16,20

4:23,24

hearings 3:5

Home 5:19

hour 5:18

housekeeping 3:18

5:1

HS 3:5 5:10,17

Hull 1:16 3:11,11

Human 1:2,11,11

1:12

C

O

CER 1:18

rules 1:5,5 5:19

o'clock 4:8 5:17,19

October 1:7 3:2,4

4:17 5:5

Certified 1:18

Child 1:5 3:5,12,16

5:10,17,19

CHILDREN'S 1:3

choosing 4:12

closed 5:20

coffee 4:10

comment 3:23 4:19

4:21 5:2,3,11

comments 3:24 4:1

4:16,17

concluded 5:21

considered 4:21

CONTENTS 2:1

copy 4:23,25

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second 3:5

send 4:17

sent 4:19,20

Services 1:2,3,12,13

set 3:5 5:20

shop 4:9

snack 4:9

snacks 4:11

soft 4:12

South 1:6,13

speak 3:24

speaking 3:23

spell 3:21

staff 4:19

starting 3:9

offering 4:10

wrapped 4:11

officer 1:12 3:7

Okay 5:2,9,12

organization 3:22

X

Y

Z

P

p.m 5:21

PAGE 2:2

panel 5:6

I

II 1:4

introduce 3:8

invaluable 3:25

0

person 3:24 4:19

Placing 1:5 3:6 5:10

5:17,19

please 3:20 4:4,17

4:18,24 5:11,12

podium 3:20

0-0-0- 5:23

1

1-800-632-2720

1:20

Corporation 1:19

J

Jessica 1:16 3:14,15

D

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DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, RULES FOR CHILD PLACING, PUBLIC HEARING VOLUME II

October 13, 2021

1:00 5:19

10:00 4:6

10:16 5:10

12:00 4:7 5:17,21

13 1:7 3:2

13th 3:4 5:5

15-minute 4:6 5:6

15th 4:17

2

2020-02 3:5 5:10,16

2021 1:7 3:2,4 5:6

235 1:6

3

3 2:3

333 1:13

335-0745 1:14

4

45-minute 4:7

48909 1:14

5

517 1:14

6

6924 1:18

7

8

8151 1:19

9

9:00 1:7

9:03 3:2,3

9:55 5:5

Page 2