IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF  
ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR  
ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT  
APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
Prepared by  
depos@networkreporting.com  
Phone: 800.632.2720  
Fax: 800.968.8653  
www.networkreporting.com  
Let us assist you GLOBALLY for all of your deposition needs.  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF ELECTIONS AND CAMPAIGN FINANCE  
In the Matter of:  
Bureau of Elections  
Administrative Rules for Online  
Absent Voter Ballot Application  
Rule Set 2021-62 ST  
/
PUBLIC HEARING  
3044 West Grand Boulevard, Detroit, Michigan  
Friday, October 1, 2021, 9:00 a.m.  
PANEL:  
ADAM FRACASSI  
Moderator  
DOUGLAS A. NOVAK, Esq.  
JONATHAN BRATER  
Bureau of Elections  
BRIAN REMLINGER  
Panel Member  
RECORDED BY:  
Anna Burns, CER 9214  
Certified Electronic Recorder  
Network Reporting Corporation  
Firm Registration Number 8151  
1-800-632-2720  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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TABLE OF CONTENTS  
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Opening Statement by Mr. Novak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4  
Rule Set 060  
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Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7  
Statement by Mr. Gabriel Rees . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9  
Statement by Mr. Matthew Rees . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10  
Statement by Mr. Valentin Dumitrescu . . . . . . . . . . 12  
Statement by Ms. Jaki Lovrince . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13  
Statement by Mr. Ryan Roberts . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15  
Statement by Mr. Rob Remelius . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17  
Statement by Unknown Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18  
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Rule Set 061  
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Statement by Mr. Philip O'Halloran . . . . . . . . . . . 20  
Statement by Ms. Evelyn Archer . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23  
Statement by Mr. Ronald Piotrowski . . . . . . . . . . . 24  
Statement by Ms. Jo DeMarco . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25  
Statement by Ms. Polly McNichol . . . . . . . . . . . . 27  
Statement by Ms. Debbie Louisignau . . . . . . . . . . . 28  
Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . 29  
Statement by Mr. Garrett Wheat . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31  
Statement by Mr. Matthew Reese . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32  
Statement by Mr. Louis Avallone . . . . . . . . . . . . 34  
Statement by Mr. Valentin Dumitrescu . . . . . . . . . . 37  
Statement by Mr. Adam DeAngeli . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38  
Statement by Mr. Ethan Hobson . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39  
Statement by Ms. Patrice Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 42  
Statement by Mr. Rob Remelius . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43  
Statement by Ms. Nancy Pomish . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43  
Statement by Mr. William Lethemon . . . . . . . . . . . 45  
Statement by Ms. Lisa Capatina . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48  
Statement by Ms. Kate DeMalleo . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49  
Statement by Ms. Jennifer Biddinger . . . . . . . . . . 51  
Statement by Mr. Ryan Roberts . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53  
Statement by Ms. Evelyn Archer . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56  
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Rule Set 062  
Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . 58  
Statement by Mr. Garrett Wheat . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60  
Statement by Mr. Brian Pendergraff . . . . . . . . . . . 61  
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Statement by Mr. Louis Avallone . . . . . . . . . . . . 62  
Statement by Ms. Polly McNichol . . . . . . . . . . . . 63  
Statement by Mr. Rob Remelius . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64  
Statement by Mr. William Lethemon . . . . . . . . . . . 65  
Statement by Ms. Jaki Lovrince . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67  
Statement by Ms. Patrice Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 68  
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Rule Set 060 (continued)  
Statement by Mr. William Lethemon . . . . . . . . . . . 69  
Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . 70  
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Rule Set 062 (continued)  
Statement by Mr. Valentin Dumitrescu . . . . . . . . . . 72  
Statement by Unknown Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 73  
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Rule Set 061 (continued)  
Statement by Ms. Kim Cousino . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74  
Rule Set 062 (continued)  
Statement by Ms. Kim Cousino . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 79  
Statement by Unknown Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81  
Statement by Mr. Ryan Roberts . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83  
Statement by Ms. Lauren Pendergraff . . . . . . . . . . 87  
Statement by Ms. Lisa Capatina . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90  
Statement by Mr. Ronald Piotrowski . . . . . . . . . . . 91  
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Closing Statement by Mr. Novak . . . . . . . . . . . . . 92  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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Livonia, Michigan  
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Friday, October 1, 2021 - 9:00 a.m.  
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MR. NOVAK: Good morning. This hearing is being  
called to order at 9:00 a.m., on October 1st, 2021 at  
Cadillac Place, Room L150, Detroit, Michigan. This is a  
public hearing on proposed administrative rules entitled,  
"Disqualification from ballot based upon contents of  
affidavit of identity, Signature matching standards for  
absent voter ballot applications and absent voter ballot  
envelopes," and, "Online absent voter ballot application."  
This hearing is being conducted pursuant to the  
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provisions of 1954 PA 116, the Administrative Procedures  
Act, and on behalf of the Department of State, Bureau of  
Elections. The hearing was published in three newspapers of  
general circulation, as well as the Michigan Register, Issue  
Number 16, published on September 15th, 2021. My name is  
Doug Novak, and to my left is Adam Fracassi, the subject  
matter expert from the Bureau of Elections, and we will be  
facilitating the hearing today.  
And just one housekeeping measure, please, this is  
a state office building, and masks are required to be worn  
in this building. And if you wouldn't mind, please make  
sure your cell phone is on silent mode, and then everybody  
can hear the comments being made today. Thank you.  
Please note that there are three sets of rules  
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October 1, 2021  
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being presented for comment today. To facilitate and  
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organize record of public comment, we ask that public  
comment during each section be limited to the rule set that  
is currently being presented. So we'll go through one, the  
next one, then the next one. You will have a chance to  
address to address other rule sets during designated  
sections of this presentation. Please ensure that you have  
signed up on the comment sheets at the entrance there, and  
that you signed on the correct sign-in sheet.  
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We will call your names when each rule set is  
being brought up. You may comment on more than one rule set  
by signing in on multiple sign-in sheets. If you wish to  
comment on a rule set that had already been presented, we  
will provide a second opportunity to comment at the end of  
the presentation. You may comment on a rule that has  
already been presented by signing in on the appropriate  
sign-in sheet.  
We are here today to receive your comments on the  
proposed rules. If you wish to speak, please make sure that  
you have signed in and indicated your willingness to speak.  
We will call on the speakers in the order in which names are  
listed on the sign-in sheets, and hopefully, we won't  
butcher your name. When you come forward to speak, please  
identify yourself with your name, the organization you  
represent, if any, and both your mailing and email address  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
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so that this information may be transcribed into the hearing  
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report. And there is a chair up here for you to sit, and  
apparently the PA system didn't work, so as long as you use  
a strong voice, everybody should hear you. Thank you. If  
you have additional comments to submit in writing, you may  
leave them at the registration desk or submit them to our  
department no later than 5:00 p.m. today. Comments can be  
submitted by emailing: elections@michgigan.gov.  
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To accommodate all speakers and all the rule sets,  
each speaker will be limited to two minutes. And again, if  
you wish to provide additional comments, you're more than  
welcome to leave your written comments with your identifying  
information on it, so we know who it's from, or submit them  
online by 5:00 p.m. With that, I will turn it over to Mr.  
Fracassi.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So I'm going to call on people. We  
are currently going to start the hearing on the rule set  
168.1, which is the Disqualification From Ballot Based on  
Contents of Affidavit of Identity. I do have the sign-up  
sheet here (indicating), so I'm going to call on you. As  
you come up, I would ask if you could spell your name for  
the court reporter, please, just so we can make sure that  
we've got it right. And if I mispronounce your name or  
anything, please feel free to let me know. So the first  
person I have is Kristina Karamo. Good morning.  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Hi. How are you doing?  
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MR. FRACASSI: I'm doing well. How are you?  
MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: I'm great.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So just to confirm, you are  
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testifying in opposition; right?  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: I'm in total opposition.  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay. Can I have you -- can I ask  
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you to spell your name, please?  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Yes, my name is Kristina  
Karamo, K-r-i-s-t-i-n-a, last name, K-a-r-a-m-o.  
MR. FRACASSI: All right. And you have two  
minutes. Go ahead.  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Yeah. So I am in complete  
opposition to Rule 060, because it disfranch- --  
disenfranchises the people of Michigan. There is no state  
or federal law requiring these rules. It's -- additionally,  
it's burdensome to our clerks. I have talked to multiple  
clerks; counties, township and city clerks across the State  
of Michigan. Many are totally unaware and they find the  
rule to be completely unnecessary.  
To require people to list every office that  
they've ever sought for nomination in every jurisdiction --  
number one, you don't clarify whether or not that's in or  
outside of -- only in Michigan, or maybe outside of  
Michigan. Many people, if you ever run for precinct  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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delegate, have submitted an affidavit identity to run for  
precinct delegate 30 years ago and may have totally  
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forgotten about it, and then the person is disqualified from  
running for office, and there is no appeal process. That is  
the problem. You give people no right, no ability to  
appeal. And what if there was an error on the clerk's  
behalf?  
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Additionally, when it comes to campaign finance  
records, I'm completely aware that there is court  
communication between the Bureau of Elections and our  
clerks. That's why there were so many issues surrounding  
our elections. And I've talked to so many clerks, they're  
now going to be required to comb through campaign finance  
records. What if there was an error in submission?  
There -- there's no appeal process. This is going to  
disenfranchise a lot of low-income people running for  
office.  
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And to protect our republic, we must ensure that  
all people, not those who are wealthy enough to afford an  
attorney and accountants, but that every citizen in the  
State of Michigan has the ability to run for office. There  
is no reason to put our clerks through such a process, to  
disqualify people with no appeal process because there are  
errors. What if the Bureau of Elections make an error?  
What if the clerk makes an error? Then the citizen has no  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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right to appeal? And all these low-income and middle-income  
people who want to run for office, who can't afford an  
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attorney or an accountant, what will they do? What if there  
is an error? What if there's an honest mistake? This is  
nothing but a rule to keep everyday people out of political  
office, and I'm extremely disappointed that this rule is  
even being proposed. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Gabriel  
Rees. Good morning. If I could, again, same thing, I would  
like to ask you to spell your name for the court reporter?  
MR. GABRIEL REES: Yup. Gabriel, G-a-b-r-i-e-l,  
Rees, R-e-e-s.  
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MR. FRACASSI: All right.  
MR. GABRIEL REES: You don't need any other  
information? Okay. Great.  
MR. FRACASSI: I'm good. Oh, actually, I should  
say -- in opposition; correct?  
MR. GABRIEL REES: Yes, in opposition. Thank you.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
MR. GABRIEL REES: Good morning. Thank you for  
having this opportunity to speak. I'll admit I wrote one  
thing for all three combined. So my thing will be  
especially short for just Rule 060. My concern is that the  
burden that Rule 060 would place on our local clerks is  
onerous and unnecessary. It does not provide opportunity  
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for remedy when good faith errors are made on a candidate's  
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affidavit of identity, and it is my opinion that this rule  
does not serve to provide greater integrity to our  
elections, which is what we should be seeking after.  
Rather, it serves only to add additional procedures and  
rules that have potential to disqualify inexperienced  
citizens from running for elected office, something that we  
should not do. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you. The next person I have  
is Matthew Rees.  
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MR. MATTHEW REES: Hello; hello.  
MR. FRACASSI: Good morning.  
MR. MATTHEW REES: Good --  
MR. FRACASSI: And you are, same thing, testifying  
in opposition; right?  
MR. MATTHEW REES: Yes; yes, that's correct.  
MR. FRACASSI: I'm going to ask you to spell your  
name, as well, for the court reporter.  
MR. MATTHEW REES: Yup. It's Matthew,  
M-a-t-t-h-e-w, and Rees, R-e-e-s. So thank you, again,  
having this time. I think it's pretty clear, some of the  
points have already been made, that this has potential to  
put a lot of people in jeopardy who want to run for office.  
I know in my township that I live in, it's very, very  
difficult to get anybody to run currently, with current  
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rules, just based on the process that currently exists.  
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Adding additional burdens to our clerk's office, many of  
whom are well under paid for the work that they do, they're  
going to be dealing with a lot more documentation, a lot  
more analysis of finance records. I think you're -- we're  
going to end up with a whole slew of people not running,  
with blank ballots up and down. Maybe that's an extreme  
case, but I could see it happening, at least on the local  
level, if not on the state -- county and state levels.  
So it's really concerning to see that we --  
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anything can be disqualified without an appeals process. So  
that too is a huge concern, to not have any kind of appeals  
process built into this law. This ruling, it would be  
foolish. We have appeals processes today. And if you can  
have one party decide all of a sudden that this nitpicky  
thing, this interpretation of a rule can be used to  
disqualify someone with literally no appeals process, you're  
bound to have targeted political moves built into this, and  
that should never be in our elections process.  
Everyone should be able to run. Everyone should  
be able to voted for. Everyone should be able to have this  
opportunity to represent the people and their community. So  
I am very concerned about the way the ruling is written as  
it is currently. I would ask that you look into that, and  
if that cannot be resolved, that we take a second look, and  
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don't pass -- don't move this forward. Thank you very much.  
MR. FRACASSI: So the next person I have is Louis  
Avallor (sic).  
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MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: (inaudible)  
MR. NOVAK: Are you signed in on the other one?  
MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: Yes.  
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MR. NOVAK: Okay. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Perfect. The next person I have is  
Valentin Dumitrescu. Yes.  
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MR. VALENTIN DUMITRESCU: I am Valentin  
Dumitrescu; Valentin, as in valentine, but no "E" at the  
end, and Dumitrescu, D, as in David, u-m-i-t-r-e-s-c-u.  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay. Perfect. And again, in  
opposition; right?  
MR. VALENTIN DUMITRESCU: I'm in opposition of  
this solely case, and going to burden and discourages  
people. Actually, it's the foundation of principal of our  
republic; by The People, for The People, from The People.  
It's -- if anything should be make it easier for people to  
get involved in the political process and to get ownership  
of the political process. Unless it's misstated before  
here, it's an undue burden on the clerks who are verifying  
those submission papers by candidates, which basically they  
will not be able to perform that function, and secondly, it  
will insert political biases.  
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I will give you an example: Last year -- I mean,  
in the 2020 election, there was a bias; Republicans who are  
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removed from the possibility to run for office for violation  
of such rules, where Democrats who had the same violation  
were let go. So this -- this process of people applying and  
running for office -- public office should be as unpolitical  
as possible. So that's my strong opposition for this Rule  
060. Thank you very much.  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Jaki --  
MS. JAKI LOVRINCE: Lovrince.  
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MR. FRACASSI: -- Lovrince.  
MS. JAKI LOVRINCE: Thank you for allowing me to  
speak freely. If you can't speak freely, you're simply not  
free. I'm here opposed to all of the bills simply because  
of the -- of what the first, second, third, and fourth  
speaker has said. The first name, I'm going to spelling --  
is, J-a-k-i. I'm in Harper Woods. And yes, I'm here to  
speak about the elections in our -- I'm getting off track.  
So let me start over, gentlemen, if I may?  
My name is Jaki. I'm -- I stand opposed to all  
these bills. I'm here because of the governmental  
overreach. Thank you for your time. And if you can't speak  
freely, then you're simply not free. The censorship is  
maddening in this electrical B system world. Last night,  
for this meeting, was the first time I heard. At this time,  
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I would like to remind the room, the Arizona audit has  
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concluded fraudulent, and not all doom and gloom, but some  
of you may be living in a very small room. Nearly a year,  
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you say, makes absolutely no sense for another election this  
way, Michigan next. I stand here with God, the  
Constitution, and my sovereign rights. You oath takers are  
tearing up, stomping on that, and it isn't right. Speaking  
of sovereign, "build back better" is an international  
analogy, and it is destroying the American economy. To  
discredit any affidavit for a spelling error; it's an  
affidavit, treat it accordingly.  
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In turn, please tell me how many un-vetted and un-  
vaxxed have transported and housed on my hard-working tax.  
Recent House of Representatives suggest the vetting process  
may be changed, only to be 16-years of age and to have an  
address. Now, come on, man. How many hands have you been  
shaking. With that, you are taking away the power of the  
people at the lowest level of government, and that is  
exactly what we have three branches of legislation for.  
Leave it for the clerks?  
If that's the case, then your system's a disgrace,  
and I don't vote for -- and I didn't vote for dominion, so  
get it out of the poles place. It is the government and  
Secretary of State that will collect all my data, because  
your social points matter. It's everyone's own QR code;  
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it's called Tiberius, you know. It is linked to the  
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internet 2.0, and if you don't believe me, look around at  
this clown show. It is going to be for the medical, too,  
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this digital quantum-dot tattoo. In the end, it sounds more  
like I'm being enslaved. You don't own my genodes; it's my  
DNA, and that's not of your business, Secretary of State.  
MR. FRACASSI: All right. Thank you. The next  
person I have is Ryan Roberts. Ryan Roberts? Perfect.  
Thank you. Can I just ask that again you kind of just  
confirm the spelling of your name, please?  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Ryan Roberts, R-y-a-n,  
R-o-b-e-r-t-s.  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay. Thank you.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Yeah, I'm in opposition of all  
three rules being proposed, RIS form 2021-60, I read through  
the -- through that form, and it's talking all this stuff  
about how it's all good, and it doesn't seem to talk about  
the negatives that come with the rules. I spoke with a  
township clerk last night. She said she was unaware of any  
of this stuff going on, and she was upset, because she likes  
to be informed; she's part of different associations. She  
feels she should have been informed. She also said that she  
doesn't feel that they should have to have the  
responsibility of vetting out candidates and possibly  
turning them away. And that's a burden that's not listed in  
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the RIS form.  
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Another burden is on the candidates. They have to  
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scramble to make sure they're in compliance with these  
rules, and that they're not overlooking any past fines or  
anything to face disqualification that can't be overturned.  
Last year, a candidate in northern Michigan was on the  
ballot, doing good, and because of a small $1,000 fine, she  
was disqualified, had to be removed off the ballot, making  
it so new ballots had to be sent out. It was so much  
confusion in northern Antrim County in Cheboygan, in  
northern Michigan. So many problems with the election  
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system. The clerks were ticked off up there, all leading up  
to the election. It was last minutes changes. It was  
illegal changes last year. A whole bunch of stuff, and now  
Jocelyn Benson want to make more changes to weaken our  
voting system even more. It's already weak enough. She is  
a criminal. You know, trump put in a law in 2018 for a  
domestic and foreign terrorists who tamper with the  
election, and this is treason from Nessel, Whitmer, and  
Jocelyn, and we not going to stand for it.  
MR. NOVAK: (Inaudible) and then we'll move to --  
this is 061.  
MR. FRACASSI: So we have one more person who is  
signing in right now, but is there anybody who wants to  
speak on Rule 060? This is the Affidavit of Identity. For  
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anybody who came in late and didn't hear the beginning, we  
are taking each rule set in turn. So if anybody at this  
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time wants to speak on Rule 060, the Affidavit of Identity  
rule, --  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
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MR. FRACASSI: -- otherwise we're going to go  
to --  
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MR. NOVAK: This is 060.  
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MR. FRACASSI: I'll ask you to come right up,  
right in front. And I'm going to ask you if you could just  
confirm the spelling of your name, please, for our court  
reporter?  
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MR. ROB REMELIUS: Yes, Rob, last name is,  
R-e-m-e-l-i-u-s.  
MR. FRACASSI: So just because you came in late,  
just so you know, there are two minute -- we are limiting  
testimony of this for two minutes per rule set. So I will  
turn it over to you. You may begin, when you're ready.  
MR. ROB REMELIUS: Okay. And this is the  
disqualification --  
MR. FRACASSI: Correct.  
MR. REMELIUS: Right? All right. So this may  
have been mentioned already, but I know that a lot of the  
city and township clerks don't have the training with  
Michigan's Campaign Finance Act, since the finance reports  
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are filed with the Secretary of State's office or county  
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clerk's office. So that makes them ill-equipped to carry  
out this change. Also, they don't have the resources or  
funding to search through the databases -- thousands of  
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databases to see if somebody has ever run for office before.  
And personally, I don't see how that matters. You know, if  
you've run for an office before, whether you won or not --  
if you won, obviously, it would be public record, and if you  
lost, it would probably be public record still. So if  
somebody wanted to find that out, they probably could. I  
don't know how that is material to this. So that is why I  
am opposed, and that's it.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Okay. Thank you very much.  
MR. ROB REMELIUS: Thanks.  
MR. FRACASSI: The last call before we move on to  
the next rule set. Does anyone want to speak on Rule 060,  
the Affidavit of Identity, before we move on?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes. Thank you for the  
opportunity to speak.  
MR. FRACASSI: Have you signed in already or not?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I haven't signed in on that  
particular topic, but --  
MR. FRACASSI: (inaudible)  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: -- given the opportunity, I  
would like to add my name to the list of people who have  
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spoke, and just say that all the reasons have pretty well  
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been stated. But I would like to support all of the same  
reasons. I don't have all the detail they had, but after  
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hearing what they have said, I am in full agreement and want  
to support exactly what they have said in opposition to that  
particular bill. I've lived in the State of Michigan for 74  
years. I have watched all types of things come and go. I  
have never in my entire life seen the situation that we have  
today.  
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People who wish to run find it very difficult;  
they make it very hard. We have elected officials who are  
supposed to make laws that make our lives easier and protect  
us, and what I see currently is an absolute effort in the  
other direction, obfuscate everything, make it as difficult  
as you can, so that we can maintain our position and put  
people in that are hand selected and are vetted to be able  
to not make a spelling error on an application. I think  
it's utterly ridiculous, if not criminal, to not allow  
people to run for office over something as silly as that.  
So that's my opinion. I won't take any more time.  
Thanks for the opportunity to express it.  
MR. FRACASSI: Could I just ask that you sign in  
on this sheet, please, so we have your name for the --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Sure.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you. So at this time, I  
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would like to close the first part of public comment for the  
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first rule set, and we can turn back at the end still, if  
needed, as well. And I would like to move to the second  
rule set, which is Rule Set-061, and it's the signature  
matching for absent voter ballot applications and absent  
voter ballot envelopes. The process will be the same as it  
was before. I have a list of people. I will call on you  
and ask you to speak; it's in order that I have here  
(indicating). And again, if I could have you confirm your  
spelling of your name for our court reporter, please. And  
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again, time will be limited to two minutes, as well. So the  
first person I'm going to start with is Philip O'Halloran.  
MR. PHILIP O'HALLORAN: O-H-a-l-l-o-r-a-n.  
REPORTER: I'm sorry?  
MR. O'HALLORAN: O-h-a-l-l-o-r-a-n. Okay.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you very much.  
MR. O'HALLORAN: You're welcome. Thanks for  
having me. The proposed rule I think should be renamed "The  
Fraud Facilitation Rule." Under this rule, all signatures  
will be presumed valid. It will reject only multiple  
significant and obvious differences between the signature on  
the ballot and the signature on file. Even signatures that  
violate all three of the above undefined rules can still be  
accepted if they have one redeeming factor, such as a  
shaking hand or a signature that appears rushed. Of course,  
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hypothetical ballot harvesters working in a warehouse to  
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create thousands of fake ballots will appreciate a rule  
which accommodates their rushed scribbles. Like the famous  
statement of a supreme court justice who admitted he  
couldn't define pornography, but "I know it when I see it,"  
a mismatched signature is a mismatched signature. It's  
something that our Michigan pole workers, possessing basic  
common sense and a pair of eyes, are more than capable of  
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spotting. They also have supervisors who can help them with  
close calls.  
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This rules is an insult to their intelligence, and  
it's an assault on one of the last remaining bulwarks  
against election fraud, and that's the fact that our ballot  
validation procedure is carried out by thousands of Michigan  
citizen pole workers. That signature matching process is  
decentralized, and that's a good thing. Our Secretary of  
State's last veiled attempt at fraud facilitation was  
overturned by the Michigan Court of Claims, unfortunately,  
after the election, when the damage had already been done.  
Now she returns and shows contempt for that ruling  
in trying to circumvent it through this proposed signature  
match rule. This rule which will serve to funnel fraudulent  
ballots into undeserved authenticity must be withdrawn  
immediately if we have any hope of restoring election  
integrity. And lax rules from the top have consequences. I  
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was at the TCF Center last November as a GOP challenger, so  
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you can't tell me that there was no fraud or that this was  
the most secure election in history; it was not. At the  
TCF, even the senior advisor of the Detroit City Clerk,  
Chris Thomas, presumed signature validity when he was  
presented with a clear signature mismatch by pole worker  
whistleblower Jessy Jacob, who allegedly -- he allegedly  
told her to "let it go." If that is the attitude and the  
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protocol for handling fraudulent signatures from our highest  
officials, what hope do we have of regaining election  
integrity that was so obviously absent last November? Thank  
you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person I would like to  
call on is Evelyn Archer.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Turn on the microphone.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We can't hear.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We can't hear.  
MR. FRACASSI: I will speak louder. This  
(indicating) microphone is for the court reporter.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It's the speaker we can't hear.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The speaker.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible).  
MR. FRACASSI: Yeah. Ms. Archer, I would ask that  
you please speak up as much as you can. Like I said, the  
court -- the microphone there is for the court reporter. So  
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if you could speak up as much as possible, so people can  
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hear you. Can I ask you to confirm the spelling of your  
name, please, for our court reporter?  
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MS. EVELYN ARCHER: Evelyn Archer, E-v-e-l-y-n,  
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A-r-c-h-e-r, and I'm here on behalf of Oxford Grassroots for  
Election Integrity. I am in opposition to Secretary of  
State Benson's proposed rule to eliminate the signatures  
match, and most of my comments echo what Dr. Phil O'Halloran  
just said regarding that it's against state election law.  
Nowhere is it listed in state election law to eliminate the  
signature match. And the Michigan Court of Claims shot down  
Secretary of State Benson, as well, and here she is, only to  
come back to propose something that encourages fraud.  
And the signature match seems to be the only last  
remaining safeguard that we have to free and fair elections  
for everybody; everybody. And in regard to the signature  
matches, a -- eliminating it and accepting a scribble as a  
redeeming factor, it is age discrimination, actually, when  
you consider the voter's age. If it's a scribble, it's age  
discrimination toward the old or the young scribbles, and  
discrimination against the non-old or non-young who do not  
scribble.  
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And I just object to it. The Carter-Baker  
Commission on federal election reform said that the most  
common source of election fraud would be for an absentee  
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ballot to find its way into the hands of someone other than  
the voter through this type of a ruling. I think we need to  
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protect the match, protect our election records, and  
Secretary of State Benson should know it's her job to do so;  
if not, get out of the way. Thank you.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Right on, sister.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So the next person I have is  
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Roman (sic) -- I'm going mispronounce the last name.  
MR. RONALD PIOTROWSKI: Piotrowski.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Piotrowski (pronouncing)?  
MR. RONALD PIOTROWSKI: Yes. Once again, thank  
you for the opportunity to speak. This is the subject that  
I came -- came to in order to comment on. My name is  
Ronald, R-o-n-a-l-d, Piotrowski, P-i-o-t-r-o-w-s-k-i.  
Again, my -- the people that spoke ahead of me listed a long  
list of reasons why people would be opposed to this. I'm  
here to support everything they said, and add a couple  
comments of my own. And I speak for voters across the state  
of Michigan, hundreds of thousands of whom, if they even  
knew what was in these bills would be here in droves. But  
they're so busy trying to make a living, trying to survive  
in the economy that we live in today, because failed efforts  
of government to try to lead us in the right direction have  
just ended up complicating everybody's life to the point  
they don't have time to dig into all of this detail.  
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If the Secretary of State wants to make law, she  
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should have ran for the legislature, not for Secretary of  
State; it's outside her purview. She can give an opinion,  
but she can't make the law. She doesn't have that ability.  
We have statutes on the books that require signature  
verification. It's worked in the past. We started  
tampering with the existing law, and look what we have  
today. People up in arms, not knowing that their vote  
counts.  
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Every voter in the State of Michigan has the right  
to know that his vote is counted; mine included, yours  
included. And whether they write well or they don't write  
well is not the issue. The signature should be verified.  
Not verifying signatures opens the door to nothing but  
fraud. And if we put a law like that into effect, to me, we  
are promoting illegal activity and I'm totally against it  
and propose that you reconsider and do not change the law to  
verify signatures. Thank you.  
MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is  
Jo DeMarco.  
MS. JO DEMARCO: My name is --  
MR. FRACASSI: (inaudible) -- could just ask you  
to confirm the spell- --  
MS. JO DEMARCO: My name is Jo DeMarco.  
MR. FRACASSI: (inaudible)  
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MS. JO DEMARCO: And gentlemen, you can all check  
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my signature and spelling of my last name up at the front  
security desk, because I had to sign in and show my  
identification to even get into the building. So just to  
say, I'm opposed to all three of these bills and would like  
to remind everybody that in October 2020, just one month  
prior to the presidential election, Jocelyn Benson  
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instructed Michigan clerks and election officials to presume  
the accuracy of absentee ballot signatures.  
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State Court Judge Christopher Murray ruled this to  
be illegal on several levels, and also charged Benson in  
direction local election officials to ignore their statutory  
obligations. As Secretary of State, Benson should know the  
law, and she should instruct it. But instead, she broke it,  
and she incited statewide election officials to follow her  
violation of authority. To this day, Benson has not been  
held accountable. Is it her arrogance or mere disdain for  
the law as she attempt to reimplement the very same  
directive that was ruled against her last year?  
And these days, we can't go anywhere or do  
anything without showing our identification and putting our  
signatures all over. As I said, I had to sign in and show  
my ID to even get into this building. So ask yourself, why  
would Democrats be so forceful in mandating identification  
in every phase of our normal, everyday life except in our  
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nation's most precious commodity, fair elections?  
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Relaxing election ID will only increase the  
ability to cheat and further diminish our belief in fair  
elections. Our country is at stake over this. Benson made  
it clear she has no regard for the law and puts her  
political agenda above it, while her friends Whitmer and  
Nessel turn a blind eye to this and many other  
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discrepancies. Michigan voters need to show her she can't  
get away with it. So voters, maintain strict ballot  
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signature compliances and say "no" to online ballot absentee  
voting applications.  
MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Polly  
McNichol.  
MS. POLLY MCNICHOL: You know, that's -- you said  
it right, Polly McNichol, spelled like the road.  
MR. FRACASSI: Perfect. Thank you. Go ahead,  
whatever you're ready.  
MS. POLLY MCNICHOL: About the signature  
verification standards --  
MR. FRACASSI: Yes, we are still on the signature  
matching standards.  
MS. POLLY MCNICHOL: Yes. Lowering the standards  
for signature matching would take it below the lowest common  
dominator. Instead, we should be raising the standards. No  
one here can deny this would make voter fraud crazy-easy and  
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rampant and almost impossible to prove, and I'm sure the  
Secretary of State is aware of that. The rule would allow  
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practically a paw print for a signature, and even worse, it  
would allow no signature. And We, The People, urge you to  
not consider this rule.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you. The next person I have  
is Debbie -- Louisegraw (phonetic)?  
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MS. DEBBIE LOUISIGNAU: You're getting it.  
Louisignau.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Louisignau (pronouncing). I was  
close.  
MS. DEBBIE LOUISIGNAU: That was pretty good.  
That's, L-o-u-i-s-i-g-n-a-u, Deborah or Debbie, whichever.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
MS. DEBBIE LOUISIGNAU: You're welcome. I am  
really disgusted with these three new rule-making requests  
from Jocelyn Benson to change our Michigan election rules.  
These rules weaken the integrity of our Michigan elections,  
especially 062, that would make it easier to commit fraud,  
sending ballots online with no way to check ballot  
signatures. We must keep our current requirement for every  
ballot that requires an applicant for absentee voters to  
sign the ballot. No valid signature should mean no valid  
vote.  
MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Kristina  
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Karamo.  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: So -- my time has started  
yet? So I would like to start my comments off with a quote.  
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"We've always had identification requirements in  
Michigan. It's called a signature. It's one of the  
hardest things to fake. While you can fake an ID, it's  
harder to fake a signature. So that's the most secure  
way of protecting the vote."  
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That's a direct quote from Jocelyn Benson. So for her to  
claim that signature verification is the best way of  
securing our elections, then to turn around and weaken the  
very standard she claims is most essential to securing our  
elections makes it quite obvious that her intention is to  
inject the system with thousands of illegal ballots.  
To sit there and to weaken our election system is  
a direct attack on our republic. The way We The People  
maintain control over our republic is through the election  
system. And then for her, after a Priorities USA lawsuit,  
which was very friendly, which is headed by Joe Biden's  
number one donor, show that Joe -- shows that Jocelyn Benson  
is not here in the State of Michigan to protect the people  
of Michigan, to protect our election system; it's simply to  
advance her political agenda.  
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It is completely unacceptable to have our  
Secretary of State propose a rule that a judge already  
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knocked down into our system to weaken our elections. We  
cannot have this rule. Additionally, it puts another burden  
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on our clerks, because now they'll be faced with the moral  
dilemma of what to do when confronted with a knowingly false  
signature, because they've been instructed to assume  
signatures are valid rather that not. We must shoot down  
this rule. It cannot stand. It's a direct attack on our  
republic, and it's a direct attack on the citizens of  
Michigan. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So I just want to take a -- we're  
going to take a couple minute recess so we can get the timer  
back up, just so you guys have it. So at this time, we'll  
just take a short recess, and then we'll reconvene in five  
minutes probably. So if you want to stay, you can. But  
feel free to take a break.  
(Off the record)  
MR. NOVAK: We're calling the hearing back to  
order. Just to respect everyone's time, we'll do the -- I  
will have a timer on my phone that I'll hold up when it's at  
the two minutes until the computer gets back up, and then  
we'll continue with the computer on the screen. So we're  
going to continue, call the hearing back to order, and  
proceed with the next speaker.  
MR. FRACASSI: So we are still on Rule Set 061.  
We will finish testimony with this one, and then we'll keep  
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moving. But the next person that I have wishing to speak on  
this one is Garrett Wheat.  
MR. GARRETT WHEAT: Good morning.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Good morning. And then if I could  
ask you just to confirm your name, again, for the court  
reporter? -- confirm the spelling, and then --  
MR. GARRETT WHEAT: Yeah, Garrett Wheat, G-a-r-r-  
e-t-t, W-h-e-a-t. I am chief of staff to Senator Ruth  
Johnson, chair of the Senate Elections Committee and former  
Secretary of State, and I also worked in the executive  
office of the Secretary of State during her time in office.  
MR. FRACASSI: I'm going to ask you to speak up.  
I'm sorry to interrupt.  
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MR. GARRETT WHEAT: Yes.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
MR. WHEAT: The -- I'm speaking in opposition to  
the proposed rule. The purpose of the administrative rules  
making process is to implement the law, not to change the  
law or make new laws. The proposed rule states that  
signatures must be reviewed beginning with the presumption  
that the voter's signature is their genuine, valid  
signature, that if there are any redeeming qualities, the  
signature must be treated as valid, and it also contemplates  
clerks using hypothetical factors they have not verified  
with the voter, such as the possibility that they are  
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disabled in determining a signature is valid.  
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This directly contradicts with the statutory  
language in our election laws, which states that the  
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signature on file must be used to determine the genuineness  
of a signature on an application for an absentee ballot.  
And how that can -- complete with beginning with the  
presumption that it is valid is not in line with the  
statutory language, and it attempts to change or modify the  
law. So our comment is that we believe the presumption is  
in direct contradiction to statutory language; it does not  
serve to implement but to create new directives which are  
not in the law; And that the language regarding how the  
determination is made should be clarified with -- you know,  
it should be in the interest of helping the clerks to make  
that determination in conjunction with handwriting experts.  
We also believe there should be no hypothetical factors  
without the clerk confirming with the voter a reason why a  
signature may not match. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Okay. The next person I have is  
Matthew Rees.  
MR. NOVAK: And just for the speaker's benefit,  
when you have 15 seconds left, I'll raise up my phone, just  
to give you a little advance --  
MR. MATTHEW REES: Thank you.  
MR. NOVAK: -- until they can get -- oh, wait.  
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Here we go --  
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MR. FRACASSI: We're back; technology.  
MR. MATTHEW REES: Thank you; thank you, again.  
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Matthew Rees, M-a-t-t-h-e-w, R-e-e-s. So with this specific  
rule, signature matching for absent ballots, I think it's  
already been stated numerous times. Very concerning that we  
presume that a signature, which is the critical piece of  
information on an absentee ballot is good. And also having  
to put the burden on clerks, again, I think that already is  
pretty clear that we are looking, with all of these rules,  
to burden clerks beyond the point of them -- their ability,  
their skill set, and their pay, for that matter.  
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It's just really concerning, because then you're  
going to basically burn out clerks until they just give up  
and say, "You know what? I'm just going to presume all  
these ballots are fine." All right? So these are the kind  
of things that happen in the real world when these kind of  
rules are implemented, is that over time -- "All right. I'm  
going to try and do my best to make sure that even with  
these rules, I am being critical; I'm making sure that we  
don't have any fraudulent things." But then they might  
jeopardize -- they might feel like they're in jeopardy of  
getting sued or something like that, because -- "Oh, I  
didn't follow the rules -- the vague rules that say,  
'presume everything is good until you're absolutely  
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certain -- and even if you're absolutely certain, maybe just  
presume they have a disability, maybe just presume that this  
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person is old and can't write their signature.'" Like  
that's kind of crazy. I mean, most of the situations where  
we have valid harvesting issues, fraudulent signature  
issues, stem around folks forging the signatures of the  
elderly, taking them from senior citizens homes, taking  
absentee ballots that were just mailed out to them, in like  
this last election, without their request, sending that form  
out, filling out the form for an old person, and then  
sending it back with a fraudulent signature that you did in  
scribbles so that someone would just approve it.  
So I have a lot of problems in the this, because  
again, I think we saw a lot of these fraudulent claims and  
attempts being made in the last election without the rule.  
So to try and strengthen it with a formal rule is just going  
to go down the road to oblivion. So thank you for your  
time.  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Louis --  
Avallore (sic)?  
MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: It's, Avallone, A-v-a-l-l-o-  
n-e. And I speak --  
MR. FRACASSI: Avallone; Avallone?  
MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: Avallone, A-v-a- --  
MR. FRACASSI: Avallone (phonetic). Okay. Thank  
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you.  
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MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: -- l-l-o-n-e. Yeah. So I'm  
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speaking on my concerns and the concerns of the PIME  
organization, Pure Integrity for Michigan Elections. Give  
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me a second. Okay. So I want to explain logical errors and  
legal errors with the proposed rule. Rule two states that  
the proposed rules for signature matching apply exclusively  
to activities defined by section 761.2. This --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Speak up, please.  
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MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: -- this appears --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Thank you.  
MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: Yeah. This appears to  
conflict with the stated goals of the proposed -- the  
proposed rules, which states that absentee voter -- absent  
voter ballot applications and envelopes need to be signature  
matched. I think it's been overlooked that 761.2 only  
defines the signature matching activity related to the  
process -- processing of absentee ballot applications. This  
means that as written, the proposed rules would only apply  
to signature verification for absentee ballot applications  
and not the envelopes.  
Next, statutory conflicts. The proposed rules  
instruct that when performing the verification of a presumed  
voter's signature, the signature on the ballot app- --  
the -- on the absentee ballot application may be used for  
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comparison. This is in contrary to all statutes that  
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require signature matching to be performed, and I list six  
of them in the documents that I sent to you. In all cases,  
these statutes specify that the only -- or that only the  
Master Card signature or it's digital image stored in the  
QVF may be used to verify a presumed voter's signature.  
This direct conflict between the instructions and the  
proposed rules and the statutory requirements implies that  
the proposed rules are unlawful. So that gets me to  
statutory violations.  
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Sections 31(1) and 765a(13) outline that the  
Secretary of State has authority and responsibility for  
providing rules and guidance for the conduct of elections,  
but they must remain complaint with existing election laws.  
MCL 168.931(2) states that unless otherwise indicated, all  
violations of election laws for which an offense is not  
specified are to be considered misdemeanors. 168.680  
outlines the oath taken by election inspectors to report all  
punishable election law offenses even if there's only reason  
to believe a law has been violated.  
Taken together, these statutes presume that the  
Secretary of State is guilty of a misdemeanor should the  
unlawful instructions from the proposed rules be  
implemented. Furthermore, election inspectors aware of  
these statutes are obligated to report such misdemeanors,  
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and the Secretary of State is obligated to investigate them.  
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Finally, the application of the proposed rules at the  
November 3rd, 2020 elections suggested a misdemeanor, as  
described above, has already been committed and not  
reported. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Valentin  
Dumitrescu.  
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MR. VALENTIN DUMITRESCU: Thank you for the  
opportunity. I have to express my opposition to this rule,  
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also. Valentin, as in valentine, no "E" at the end, D-u- --  
D, as in David, u-m-i-t-r-e-s-c-u. Instead of making the  
election more secure, the Secretary of State seems to -- she  
has a plan to make it less secure and more less secure. I  
think the Arizona audit results couldn't have come to a  
better time than now that people -- I mean, the media  
dishonestly reportedly that Biden won Arizona, not informing  
the people the rest of the audit, which was more than a  
handry (phonetic) count.  
The handry (phonetic) count cannot identify  
fraudulent ballots because the ballot, by design, to protect  
the security of the vote, is separated either from the name  
on the voter list or from the envelope it came it. So what  
the -- regarding the signature, what this audit found is  
that many signatures were considered valid even if they were  
blank or scribbles. So we need, in order to protect the  
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integrity of the election and to ensure that the people who  
are voting are the actual people who represent one legal  
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person connected to one legal vote -- we need that signature  
to be -- not -- to be strictly verified. So that's why I  
strongly oppose this rule changes.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you. The next person I have  
is Adam DeAngeli.  
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MR. ADAM DEANGELI: Thank you. And on behalf of  
the more than 2,000 Rescue Michigan members whose petitions  
we submitted this morning, it really is amazing that the  
Court of Claims can say that there is no statutory basis for  
a presumption of validity of a signature, and yet the rule  
begins with the presumption of validity of a signature. But  
it goes even beyond that. It actually provides a roadmap.  
It says exactly how one can submit a signature that must be  
presumed valid. Because even if a signature is said to have  
multiple and obvious deficiencies, it provides exactly how  
any one curing factor can require that any signature, no  
matter how many multiple, obvious, and severe deficiencies  
must be presumed as valid. It literally provides a  
foolproof formula for forgery. And what makes this so  
significant is that the signature match is the only thing we  
have to ensure that the person who's submitted the ballot is  
actually the person to whom it was issued.  
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Reform, chaired by President Jimmy Carter and former  
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Secretary of State James Baker, identified absentee ballots  
as the most significant source of ballot insecurity, which  
is obvious because the ballots are out in the field, unlike  
ballots that are collected at the poles on election day.  
The signature match is what the Secretary of State herself  
relied on in arguing against voter ID, claiming that the  
signature verification is all that's necessary. And yet  
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here she comes before us saying that here is exactly how you  
can have a signature verification standard so lenient and so  
lax it actually provides exactly how anybody attempting to  
intercept a ballot and provide a fraudulent signature can do  
so, and be certain that it would be assumed valid by the  
pole workers. There is little question that this was done  
in bad faith, that this was done intentionally to facilitate  
election fraud. And there is no statutory basis. We will  
intend to appeal this rule if it goes before JCAR. Thank  
you for your time.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Thank you.  
MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Ethan  
Hobson.  
MR. ETHAN HOBSON: How are you gentleman today?  
MR. FRACASSI: Good morning.  
MR. ETHAN HOBSON: Good morning. You need the  
proper spelling of my name, also?  
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MR. FRACASSI: If you don't mind, yes, please.  
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MR. ETHAN HOBSON: E-t-h-a-n, is the first name,  
H-o-b, as in boy, s-o-n, is the second name.  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay.  
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MR. ETHAN HOBSON: I would like to know why this  
meeting is taking place today and why this meeting didn't  
take place back in 2020?  
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MR. ETHAN HOBSON: Jocelyn Benson sold out our  
elections before the election was even here. Her, along  
with Priorities USA, a D.C. lobbying group, and also the  
biggest owner to Joe Biden's campaign, decided to have a  
lawsuit with our signature matching process, deeming it  
unconstitutional. This was originally filed in October and  
the judge found that Priorities USA had no standing in the  
matter. So Priorities USA came back two months later with a  
Plaintiff for the case.  
Our senate and our house, as well, sent an  
attorney over to this matter, and these violations still  
were not brought back to the legislator, and we would all  
like to know why. These changes were already implemented  
and given to the clerks and used in the 2020 election. But  
now we get our public hearing, and now the people get a  
voice. And this (indicating) will be passed around to  
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everybody here, so everybody can read this. And this whole  
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stack of documents will be left to you gentleman at the end  
of the day so you can go over this entire case of when this  
lobbying group from D.C. tried to invade our elections, and  
Secretary Benson complied with it. Before the judge even  
entered his ruling on this case, she complied with this  
group, and that's when all these changes came and were  
implemented in 2020. The biggest being, at the bottom of  
this statement released by Marc Elias it says,  
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"Another victory for voting rights. Michigan  
Secretary of State revises signature match process as a  
result of federal lawsuit from Washington D.C. In  
October, we sued Michigan on behalf of Priorities USA  
to block their unconstitutional signature matching  
process. Under Michigan election law, election  
officials rejected absentee applications and ballots."  
The main one I want to go to on the back here because of  
time is,  
"They requested formal signature matching  
training. They instruct the clerks to presume that the  
signature is valid, and a voter's signature is only  
considered questionable if a difference in multiple,  
significant, and obvious respects from the signature on  
file. Slightest similarities should be resolved in  
favor of the voter whenever possible."  
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Now, that sounds really familiar to what's being presented  
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today from her. The exact wording from Marc Elias and  
Priorities USA is exactly what we're hearing in these  
documents today. Thank you, gentlemen.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Hear; hear.  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is  
Patrice -- or Patricia Johnson?  
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MS. PATRICE JOHNSON: Patrice.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Patrice?  
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MS. PATRICE JOHNSON: Yes.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
MS. PATRICE JOHNSON: P-a-t-r-i-c-e, Johnson. I  
would like to express on behalf of Pure Integrity for  
Michigan Elections extreme opposition to all three rules.  
Clearly, I think the speakers that we've had here today,  
from Kristina Karamo, to Adam DeAngeli, to Louis Avallone  
have all clearly expressed that the regulations and statutes  
within Michigan would be violated by instituting these  
rules. There is a clear intent on the Secretary of State's  
part to deliberately violate them, as she did before in  
2020. And as the prior speaker indicated, she took the same  
rules then and is rolling them over now, and she didn't even  
generate them themselves -- herself. But she is aware of  
the statue -- the statutes in Michigan, and if she isn't,  
she certainly has access to attorneys that should be able to  
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advise her that these are in clear violation of all the  
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intent and statutes within our election laws. Thank you.  
That's it.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Rob Remelius.  
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MR. ROB REMELIUS: Thanks again for letting us  
speak here today. I just had some questions about this  
particular edict. Is there a problem with votes getting  
thrown out too often for mismatched signatures? Is that --  
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is that the reason why this is being proposed? Michigan has  
had historically weak enforcement of this ballot security  
feature, so I'm not sure how this would improve that.  
Is this to make voting easier or safer? Why does  
the current Secretary of State want to dilute votes of  
Michiganders potentially through voter fraud with this type  
of proposal? And if forced in, can these proposed changes  
survive judicial challenges, since they contradict the  
current law? Is Jocelyn Benson now in the state  
legislature? So thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Nancy Pomish; Nancy Pomish.  
MS. NANCY POMISH: Got it. Coming; coming.  
MR. FRACASSI: Oh, okay. Sorry. I was looking  
over here. I'm sorry.  
MS. NANCY POMISH: Coming; coming. So I'm  
supposed to spell my name; first, last, all of the above?  
MR. FRACASSI: It -- I have it, N-a-n-c-y,  
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P-o-m-i-s-h; right?  
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MS. NANCY POMISH: Correct; correct.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
MS. NANCY POMISH: And with all due respect, I  
appreciate you guys doing this; girls, he, shes, its,  
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whatever we want to be. And I just found out about this, so  
I don't have the background that it sounds like most of  
these people can cite rules and all that. I come from --  
so -- but I just wanted to put my two-cents in, is that  
again, I'm vehemently opposed to all these rule changes.  
I had the pleasure of working the 2020 election,  
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the primary and the general. And what I did as a pole  
worker, I was strictly in the absentee ballot and -- room,  
where there was -- for those of us -- I didn't know until  
this year that it was a Democrat and a Republican  
adjudicating, making sure everything was right, including  
signatures. And if there was something funky, the clerk who  
had previously hired in -- or brought in a bunch of people  
to make sure these signatures were right, that -- through  
the absentee and the mail-in ballots. And if they weren't,  
they took painstakingly effort to call these people and say,  
"Hey, this isn't working." And for the most part, they got  
the people coming in to validate the signatures. And those  
that were not -- they couldn't validate because they were  
scribbled or they didn't make sense, they were put aside,  
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and every effort was made to contact these people.  
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I was in a primarily democratic city, and the  
clerk is a Democrat, and I saw she painstakingly went  
through the course of doing what is the right thing, and  
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that is making sure that the signatures match. And I think  
by this Secretary of State doing what she's trying to do --  
I want to understand what is the motive.  
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If we're in the middle of this crisis -- and we  
all know it's a crisis, whether you want to believe it or  
not, you know, if we want ballot integrity, what is this  
lady trying to do, you know, polarize it even more? You  
know, the right people do the right thing. Whether you are  
on the right or the left, most of us want, you know, an  
election that's not compromised. And I think this is  
rubbish, and I think this is a way we're going to end up  
like Venezuela if we do this; period. End of story.  
MR. FRACASSI: I have William Lethemon.  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: I'll spell it.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: It's L-e-t-h-e-m-o-n. Can  
everybody in the back hear me?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Thank you.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: I am so sorry for the lack  
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of audio ability today. I can't -- I'm sitting in the  
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second row, and I can't hear them.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: I've been a pole  
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challenger. I've been a pole worker. I've been on the  
adjudication of computers, and I was also on the Board of  
Canvassers for Oakland County.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It's the greatest show on earth.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: It is. And we don't need  
to lessen the ability to get an accurate vote. In Michigan,  
what we really need in the absentee voter process is to open  
up the clerk's office, allowing pole challengers to watch  
the signature verification process. We are not allowed to  
do that right now. We need to be able to do that.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes.  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: So we need to pass laws to  
do this. We just want a fair election, that's all we want.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: One vote, one person,  
that's it, totally. And what we have today is massive  
fraud. And when Jacqueline (sic) Benson sent out all the  
applications to all the people that didn't even exist  
anymore --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I got 30.  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: You got -- well, okay. And  
how many --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And I had an affidavit that I --  
vote in person.  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay.  
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MR. NOVAK: I -- we're going to have to stop here.  
This -- the purpose of this is to provide public comment on  
the rules. In order --  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Okay.  
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MR. NOVAK: In order -- you know, just --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
MR. NOVAK: In order for the court transcript to  
accurately reflect the comments, we can't have, you know,  
back and forth. So please proceed with your comments.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Okay. No more back and  
for- -- I'm sorry. I should have called on the lady. I  
apologize.  
MR. NOVAK: Thank you.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: But anyways, what we need  
is a more secure election where absent- -- I vote absentee  
because I work the poles. So I go to my clerk's office. I  
fill out my application. I then make -- fill out my ballot  
and mail it in, or actually, I drop it off in their box.  
And we don't need zucker (phonetic) boxes around town  
either. We -- we have to eliminate the zucker (phonetic)  
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boxes. The court then verifies my application to the  
ballot, make sure the signatures match. And over the years,  
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people's signatures change. So what you have on file from  
15, 20 years ago, whatever the person has electronically --  
people's signatures change, so we need a current signature  
on the application as well as the ballot. Thank you very  
much for your time.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Thank you --  
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MR. FRACASSI: I have Lisa Captina (sic).  
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MS. LISA CAPATINA: My name is Lisa Capatina.  
Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I actually  
only came to support those speaking against Jocelyn Benson's  
proposed changes to current election law for the following  
reason: I decided to speak today because after listening to  
all of the comments, I felt compelled to support them by my  
voice, as well. After all the concerns with election  
integrity and potential fraud after the 2020 election, I  
decided to work an election for the very first time in my  
entire life this past August.  
I wanted to see for myself what were all the  
concerns everybody was talking about. I decided not to  
listen to the media narrative or other people's comments but  
to actually work the process myself. While I was in awe of  
the current voting process in our republic and felt  
extremely privileged to take part in it, it did become very  
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clear to me that the potential for fraud certainly does  
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exist. If someone truly wanted to commit fraud, there are  
certainly plenty of opportunities.  
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I am here to strongly oppose any continued changes  
in our current statutes that the Secretary of State Benson  
proposes to increase that potential for fraud and lessen  
citizens' confidence in our election processes as a whole.  
Secretary of State Benson should instead be working to  
enhance the confidence and secure elections and not be  
lessening it.  
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It is my opinion that her proposed changes will  
definitely work to do that. I implore you not to consider  
those changes. I actually believe that everyone here and in  
our state certainly wants to have a secure election, and to  
support it, and have confidence in it. Jocelyn Benson  
actually should be the one most concerned with doing it, and  
not working to actually work against citizens' confidence.  
Thank you.  
MR. FRACASSI: I have Kate -- or Katie DeMalleo.  
MS. KATE DEMALLEO: Close enough.  
MR. FRACASSI: Can I ask you to spell it for me,  
please?  
MS. KATE DEMALLEO: You can, but I will not. Read  
my -- my signature there.  
MR. FRACASSI: I can't. That's why I'm asking you  
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to spell it.  
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MS. KATE DEMALLEO: You said -- you can't?  
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MR. FRACASSI: I can't.  
MS. KATE DEMALLEO: Well then why the hell did --  
(Off the record interruption)  
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MR. FRACASSI: Okay; okay.  
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MS. KATE DEMALLEO: I was -- I was anticipating,  
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just coming here to support what I feel are unconstitutional  
violations of my rights, and I was just going to defend  
people, be here for physical support. When I see your  
hypocrisy here, that you want me to validate the spelling of  
my name 'cause you can't read my signature, and you're  
asking me to defend no validation of signatures; it's  
ridiculous.  
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(Off the record interruption)  
MS. KATE DEMALLEO: And furthermore, Ms. Benson,  
if you dare to listen to this, I'm ashamed that you're not  
here to confront your constituents and defend it.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes.  
MS. KATE DEMALLEO: She must be afraid to listen,  
or you guys are just -- sorry, you're lackeys that have to  
take the heat for her. That's all. I give my time to  
someone else who's more --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: You go right ahead -- let's have  
another meeting next week, the next week, yeah. Let's have  
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another --  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Where's Jocelyn?  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person I have is Jennifer  
Biddinger.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Come and knock on my door --  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I've got a stack two miles high.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Shouldn't she be required to be  
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here?  
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MR. FRACASSI: Okay.  
MS. JENNIFER BIDDINGER: Good morning. My name is  
Jennifer Biddinger. I am here today to represent multitudes  
of mothers and grandmothers across our state. For the most  
part, we do not live our lives for greed or power. Our  
desires are related to our families, our liberties and our  
pursuit of happiness. And for some of us, we live to please  
our God and Creator. We have become very concerned this  
past year about the shocking but accurate reports of  
problems within our election process. The mainstream media  
and social medias cannot deceive all of us, and we no longer  
are blinded in our little cocoons.  
In all due respect, it does not take a  
professional to see the flaws in these proposed rules from  
Secretary of State Benson. She is flagrantly acknowledging  
her desire to make the security of our elections a joke.  
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We, The People, want to make sure our elections are true and  
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fair. The proposed rules for mail-in ballots would make it  
an open season for fraud, with little or no validation of a  
legal voter. The proposed rules are illogical and  
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incomplete, not to mention the blatant disregard for current  
laws. You (indicating); you; you; you, must stop this from  
proceeding. We must work on exposing and fixing the  
problems, not try to cover them up or create more  
opportunities for fraud.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Right.  
MS. JENNIFER BIDDINGER: These rules do not  
provide uniform standards for city and township clerks. On  
the contrary, it makes it vague and virtually impossible for  
an election official to eliminate fraudulent signatures. We  
need to strive for strong rules and accuracy and  
transparency.  
Please stop this mockery of our election process.  
The truth needs to prevail, not the desires of a greedy and  
corrupt oligarchy. As our representatives, we ask that you  
defend our constitutions, seek truth, and rebuild our faith  
in our elections.  
Finally, please stand for all the mothers  
everywhere, and our children's future, and for all the men  
who have bravely fought for our freedoms in this country, of  
the Land of the Free.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm going to cry.  
MS. JENNIFER BIDDINGER: God bless you with  
courage and wisdom. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Are there any remaining individuals  
who have not had a chance to speak on Rule Set 061 --  
MR. ROBERTS: Yeah.  
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MR. FRACASSI: -- that would wish to speak now. I  
will call you up. If you are not signed in, I will need you  
to sign in when you are done speaking, please.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: All right; all right. Yeah, my  
name is Ryan Roberts. Again, I just got a few questions. I  
spoke with a township clerk last night. She was very upset  
that she wasn't informed about this. Like I said, she likes  
to be informed. She's a part of a lot of associations and  
she thinks that she should have been informed. So you know,  
it probably would be a lot more people here, too, if it was  
more publicized. But just like the clerk said, they  
probably trying to do this stuff under the rug, without them  
noticing.  
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But I'm also wondering, in the RIS form, it asks  
for the people to list the burdens that this might possibly  
bring, and they said it wasn't -- it wasn't going to bring  
no burdens. So we done heard all these burdens placed on  
the clerks and on the candidates when it come to the vetting  
and all this stuff, but why weren't they listed in the RIS  
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forms? There's a lot of stuff not listed in them RIS forms,  
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and those are supposed to provide clarity as to what these  
rules are going to do, that Jocelyn is proposing.  
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So why aren't they filled out with detail and  
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providing the accuracy that they're supposed to provide?  
They -- the burdens are supposed to be listed on the forms.  
What do we do when our Secretary of State or our chief  
election officer is corrupt? What do we do? You know what  
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I'm saying? I -- I request that Jocelyn Benson step down or  
resign, because she is so crooked and corrupt. Elections  
been being stole for a long time; it's not new. It's not  
nothing new.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: So all of you representatives  
and legislators and public officials to sit and act like  
it's impossible or are we just conspiracy theorists, or this  
is crazy and absurd, it's -- it just shows that your-all  
complicit, and you-all little kids -- I don't know if  
you-all know what's really going on in the political world,  
but it's evil people in power, and Jocelyn Benson work for  
one, his name is George Soros.  
These people want to take over our country. They  
want to take over our country. So while you sit there on a  
computer and act like you not interested, and while you-all  
twiddling your fingers, acting like you-all don't know why  
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we so ticked off, it's because our country is being stolen.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Right on --  
MS. LISA CAPATINA: Look it. Can you not see the  
hypocrisy? Look at the detail that you are insisting upon  
for us to just sit here and speak. "Repeat your name.  
Spell your name" --  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Yeah.  
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MS. LISA CAPATINA: -- over and over and over  
again --  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Get their names. What's you-  
all names?  
MS. LISA CAPATINA: -- (inaudible) votes -- if a  
scribble is okay today, what's next? -- a blink? I mean,  
come on.  
MR. FRACASSI: I -- ma'am --  
MS. LISA CAPATINA: And we would love if somebody  
could pick up the phone and call your boss and have her come  
down and address us personally.  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay. Thank you for your comments.  
Move on. Thank you for your comment.  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. FRACASSI: I would like to move on at this  
time. Thank you for your comments. Thank you for coming  
here. I would like to move on to the next rule set at this  
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time, please.  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Uh-huh; yeah. We ticked off.  
We got a right to be ticked off.  
MR. FRACASSI: I do need you to sign in.  
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MS. LISA CAPATINA: I already signed in.  
MR. FRACASSI: I don't need -- I need --  
MS. LISA CAPATINA: She already has my name.  
MR. FRACASSI: I need the individual that just  
spoke to sign in. I have to have that in order --  
(Off the record interruption)  
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MR. FRACASSI: Not for this rule set, he did not.  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. FRACASSI: Would you like --  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you; thank you; thank you for  
speaking; thank you for speaking.  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. FRACASSI: We have an individual that would  
like to speak. I would like to allow the individual to  
speak, please. Thank you.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Don't treat me like a number.  
MS. EVELYN ARCHER: Thank you so much. Evelyn  
Archer, again, A-r-c-h-e-r. Could you folks please -- thank  
you for holding this hearing. Could you please tell us the  
name of your body, as well as your names, and could you  
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spell them so that I can take them down?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Do you have public comment that you  
would like to provide for this rule set?  
MS. EVELYN ARCHER: Well, that -- that's my  
question, because many of us don't know actually what body  
we're speaking before. So we're exchanging our ideas.  
Could you at least exchange the name of your body to whom  
we're speaking? Are you state elections? I don't really  
know.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Can we start with this gentleman  
here?  
MR. FRACASSI: So we have -- I would like you --  
we have already introduced ourselves. We are with the  
Department of State.  
MS. EVELYN ARCHER: Okay.  
MR. FRACASSI: We are here to hear public  
testimony on these rule sets. So if -- I would ask that if  
you have any public testimony that you would like to  
provide, please provide it.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible) give your name?  
MR. FRACASSI: We've already given our --  
MS. EVELYN ARCHER: Thank you.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Could you sign your names for  
us, please?  
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MR. NOVAK: Want to call the next one?  
MR. FRACASSI: Yes. We're going to move on to the  
next rule set.  
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(Off the record interruption)  
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MR. FRACASSI: I would like to move on to the  
public comment on the next rule set. We are going to move  
on to the public comment on Rule Set 062. It is the online  
absent voter application form. I am going to -- again,  
testimony is limited to two minutes per person, and I will  
call names in order of -- which I have them on the sheet in  
front of me. The first person I have is Kristina Karamo.  
And go ahead when you are ready.  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: I guess you guys can  
obviously see people are ticked off, because our elections  
are our only manner as to which we, the governed, give our  
consent; that's it.  
I want to start off again, my complaint objection  
to this rule, with the quote I started with from the last  
one, which is a direct quote from Jocelyn Benson.  
"We've always had identification requirements in  
Michigan. It's called a signature. It's one of the  
hardest things to fake. While you can fake an ID, it's  
harder to fake a signature. So that's the most secure  
way of protecting the vote."  
And that quote in itself is stupid, because we all know that  
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faking a signature versus getting a fake ID -- come on. But  
when am I referencing this rule -- this quote with this  
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rule, because now she wants people to submit absentee ballot  
applications online and use their on-file signature with  
their registration form. Then that means that instead of  
looking at three signatures, now we're knocking it down to  
two signatures. And then this rule works in perfect tandem  
with Rule 061, that weakens the signature verification  
process. Now we're only going to be looking at two  
signatures. And Jocelyn Benson knows that the qualified  
voter file is wildly inaccurate. So that means you're  
creating a situation where someone can request a ballot  
illegally in someone else's name. And to sit and pretend  
that that's a ridiculous proposition -- we know people cheat  
in elections all the time. We currently have a clerk in  
Southfield who was indicted on election crime, still is a  
clerk in Southfield, and sign running for reelection.  
So this is a massive problem, and we're not going  
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to stand for it. So for her to submit this rule in tandem  
with the other rule, it is obvious that she has politicized  
the election process to disenfranchise the people of  
Michigan, to nullify legal votes with illegal ones. There  
is no reason for a person that claims that signature  
verification is the most important way to assure security in  
our elections to then remove one of the signatures from the  
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verification process, moving us down to two signatures, and  
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then opening a situations where people could illegally  
request ballots in other people's names. It's completely  
unacceptable.  
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MR. FRACASSI: The next person is Garrett Wheat.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Not one person in support, none  
of them approves; not one person. We can see how much We,  
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The People, matter. (Inaudible) It's not Gretchen's state.  
It's our state.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Go ahead whenever you're ready.  
MR. GARRETT WHEAT: Okay. Thank you. Again, I'm  
Garrett Wheat with Senator Ruth Johnson, Chair of the Senate  
Elections Committee and former Secretary of State. We're  
here to oppose this rule. We find this rule to be an  
absolute abuse of the administrative rule making process.  
If you want to change the law, that is something that is  
done by law makers, by the legislature, and it is not the  
prerogative of the a department to change law through the  
administrative rule making process.  
This online application and the rule that is  
proposed directly contradicts Michigan election law. It  
states that the online absent voter application must provide  
an opportunity for a voter to use the voter's stored digital  
signature on file with the Secretary of State on the  
application. Michigan election law states that an applicant  
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for an absent voter ballot shall sign the application, a  
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clerk or assistant clerk shall not deliver an absent voter  
ballot application to someone who does not sign the  
application.  
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The statutory language does not say, "The voter  
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shall sign it, or they can answer a few questions online and  
the Secretary of State will put their signature on it for  
them." That is not the statutory language. When we did an  
analogous thing with online voter registration, we went  
through the legislative process, we had a bill pass, we had  
it signed into law by the governor. That is the appropriate  
process for this type of change. And I also would just  
note, it is ironic to us that the information in the  
proposed rule, that you would request to affix this  
signature, is a complete driver's license or state ID number  
and the last four of the Social Security number. Yet when  
we pass legislation for voter ID through the Michigan senate  
recently, which would have added the exact same information  
to the absentee ballot application to provide better  
identity verification, the Secretary of State opposed those  
bills. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Matthew Rees. I will circle back  
to him. Gabriel Rees. Okay. Brian Hendergraff (sic).  
MR. BRIAN PENDERGRAFF: B-r-i-a-n,  
P-e-n-d-e-r-g-r-a-f-f, as in Frank. Electronic signature  
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verification scares the hell out me. There is so much fraud  
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in the internet. I mean, corporations, companies,  
governments, personal email accounts are getting hacked all  
the time, and I don't think there is anything that would  
stop the Secretary of State's office from getting hacked,  
and verifications being messed with and stolen.  
There's nothing simpler than two handwritten  
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signatures or three being verified by a person. That's the  
most secure way that we have to verify signatures. I think  
the electronic stuff is just ripe for fraud. Thank you.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Thank you, Brian.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Louis Avallone.  
MR. LOUIS AVALLONE: I prepared a document for you  
guys. I sent it to you by email, and I'm just going to try  
to paraphrase it here. I didn't put together these  
thoughts. More or less, what I would like to explain, at  
least my understanding, is that section 759 describes the  
signature requirements for a non-overseas or absent uniform  
voter, and only 759a applies to overseas or absent voters.  
And the only people that are authorized to have electronic  
transmittal signatures or a absentee ballot application are  
overseas or absentee ballot folks. So to suggest that  
people that are not in that classification can access online  
information is, again, an unlawful rule being made.  
The second thing I would like to mention is that  
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-- give me a second here. I've got to reference. I don't  
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have the section referenced here, but there is a -- let's  
see. What one is it?  
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Rule 3 states that the online absent voter ballot  
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application must provide an opportunity for a voter to use a  
voter's stored sign- -- excuse me -- digital signature on  
file with the Secretary of State, and that the stored  
digital signature means the image of the registered voter's  
signature captured by the Department of State and maintained  
by the Department of State's motor vehicle database. I  
would like to point out that MCL168.509(gg) strictly  
prohibits the Secretary of State or any other elected  
official from disclosing the signature of a voter as  
captured per MCL168.509(hh).  
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So my interpretation to that is it doesn't matter  
who you're disclosing the signature to. If you're  
disclosing a signature of someone back to that person even,  
it would be in violation of the statute 509(gg). And as I  
mentioned earlier, that indicates that there is -- there  
will be election laws violated by putting these rules into  
process, and they will have to be reported as violations by  
elections inspectors.  
MR. FRACASSI: Polly McNichol.  
MS. POLLY MCNICHOL: Again, Polly, P-o-l-l-y,  
McNichol, like the road. And thanks for sitting up there.  
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You guys are the lightening rod for our Secretary of State.  
If she were here, I think it would be directed right at her.  
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In 2020, 47 percent of Americans experienced financial  
identity theft, per cybercrime. So we all know it's not  
safe to put your information online.  
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I mean, all of us know that, because anything  
online is open to tampering by anyone with the motivation,  
whether it's a college kid in a forensic -- computer  
forensic class to our enemies of the United States; all can  
tamper with anything. Nothing is secure. And the use of  
the internet in our elections has already put our nation at  
great risk. So increasing the use of the internet to allow  
absentee ballot applications, it's -- well, it's nuts. It's  
reckless, at best, and in reality, it will invite wholesale  
election fraud, so please don't consider it.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes. Thank you, Polly.  
MR. FRACASSI: I have Rob Remelius.  
MR. ROB REMELIUS: Thank you, again for letting us  
comment. All right. For this last one, I'm just trying to  
understand how anybody would think that this is a secure way  
to vote absentee, especially given all the problems that  
we've had with some of the voting machines around the  
country in the last election -- that we know of, in the last  
election.  
Also, it directly contradicts the current statute,  
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which requires that "an applicant for an absent bal- --  
voter ballot shall sign the application." And again, my  
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question is, is Jocelyn Benson in the state legislature now?  
Because that is a statute; that's a law. And last time I  
checked, Secretaries of State were to carry out the laws  
under their purview and not to make new laws. So that's my  
only question about this one. Thank you very much.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
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MR. FRACASSI: Lillian (sic) Lethemon.  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Can I just preface this?  
Do you have a business card that we could have?  
MR. FRACASSI: I actually don't have any on me  
right now.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Does anyone have a business  
card? We honestly don't know where you're from, what part  
of government you're representing. We're here testifying,  
but we don't know who we're testifying for.  
MR. FRACASSI: So we are all -- we all work for  
the Department of State, and --  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: From federal or state?  
MR. FRACASSI: The Michigan Department of State.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Michigan Department of  
State? Okay.  
MR. FRACASSI: Correct. And so we are here on  
behalf of the Rules, listening to public comment, so we  
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can --  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: But none of you have  
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business cards? I find that hard to believe.  
MR. FRACASSI: Do you have a comment that you  
would wish to provide on this rule?  
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(Off the record interruption)  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Anyways, for my  
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presentation -- I apologize again for the audio. I can't  
hear. I'm old. My hearing is not great, and I'm in the  
second row, and I can't hear. Okay. The first thing I  
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would like to state is any change to election laws has to be  
done by our state legislature, not by our Secretary of  
State.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Hear; hear.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: That's the first thing.  
And how she's going to amend around, I don't know why. This  
process would take control away from our local clerks.  
There is a process already for local clerks to send out  
online applications for absentee voting; there is a process  
already.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Please pay attention, please.  
He's talking.  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: I'm sorry?  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: So anyways, this takes the  
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control away from our clerks. There's already a process  
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that they have. This process would weaken our voting  
system, not enhance it. The only thing this is going to  
enhance is fraud. That's the only thing it's going to  
provide. So -- and take away the safeguards.  
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After the 2020 election, there is so many people  
that said, "I'm not even going to bother to vote. What  
difference does it make? You've got zucker boxes; you've  
got absentee ballots coming in in truckloads from out of  
state and everything else. So I don't want to get into  
that. But we need a more robust process to ensure our  
elections, not to weaken them. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Matthew Rees. All right. How  
about Gabriel Rees? Okay.  
MS. JAKI LOVRINCE: I would like to speak on  
this -- of this issue to the counsel, if I may. My name is  
Jaki Lovrince. Thank for allowing me to speak freely. If  
you can't speak freely, you're simply not free. My  
conclusion from what I've read recently of -- about house  
bills that are being represented to our legislator is  
simply a simple issue. Many, many decades we've had the  
results overnight. What I am reading in these bills, that  
because of our new election laws that Ms. Benson is  
proposing, it's going to go on for days or maybe weeks  
before we get a result.  
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Fix that problem. We've been doing it for decades  
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and centuries; it can be done again. There is other  
solutions. Again, if I have to reference to my dominion,  
and all the illegals that are coming, and laws that are  
being portrayed at 16-years-old voting age, I'm not  
interested. I did not vote for dominion or an electronic  
voting system. Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: I have one more person who would  
wish -- oh, sorry. I'm sorry.  
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MS. PATRICE JOHNSON: I would just to speak, if I  
might. It's Patrice Johnson, and I didn't sign up, but --  
and this will just take a second. But my understanding is  
that these rules have been submitted, and that the  
committee -- the JCAR committee has a set number of days,  
but they can't strike them down. They can return them for  
270 days, and then if the Secretary of State chooses to  
proceed, we will end up in a system of the legislature  
litigating against the Secretary of State.  
So I would ask you to please change these requests  
now so that you don't put the state through this. It's a  
clear violation of law. It's going to lead to trouble.  
There was no -- there's no logic behind it other than some  
type of mal-intent (phonetic), so just look at the statutes,  
honor them, and rescind these rules. That's all. Thank  
you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you. I have one person --  
one more person who has signed up to speak on Rule 060,  
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which is disqualification from ballot based upon contents of  
affidavit of identity. William Lethemon.  
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MR. WILLIAM LETHEMON: Sorry. That's me again.  
Election law is very complicated. I've been to my city  
clerk's office. I've talked to the representatives at the  
office, and I asked them questions. I don't really get real  
firm, definitive answers. Now, if I were a candidate and I  
went to my clerk's office, because that's where you go to  
fill out the application to run for an office, and they tell  
you information incorrectly, not deliberately just  
incorrectly, and you submit it to the Secretary of State,  
you can't change it. With that being said, they're going to  
disqualify you in a future election. This is -- I don't  
know why they're doing this. And there is -- it just  
doesn't make any sense to me that somebody told you  
something in error or you made a mistake, and you can't  
correct it, and now you can't run for an office. There's no  
due process. You're disqualified before you even get  
started. So that's my comment for this. Thank you. You  
need due process.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you. So at this time, I have  
no other people that have signed up to speak. Do you wish  
to give comment again?  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: I do. I have one -- I  
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have -- I have a question regarding the affidavit of  
identity requirement. So one of the logic -- one of the  
forms of logic that is used in support of this rule is that  
it would help affirm identity. Now, the Secretary of State  
is keeper of the records, and one of the Secretary of  
State's responsibility is to affirm our identity, so it's  
really an unnecessary requirement.  
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So I do have a question for you guys, because part  
of public comment shouldn't be just us rambling. We want  
answers. So the other two rules, it's obvious that  
Secretary Benson is trying to inject our system with illegal  
ballots; it's obvious why she's doing that. But for the  
other rule, why? Why put this unnecessary burden? Why  
submit this rule and claim it's to help establish identity  
when the Secretary of State already has access to all of our  
birth certificates, death records? She is the one who  
controls whether or not I have an ID. So she already knows  
we are who say we are. So if someone can tell me why, for  
Rule 060?  
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MR. FRACASSI: So the rationale for why we have  
proposed this rule is all outlined in the regulatory impact  
statement and the request for rule making, which is all  
available online.  
MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: I've read it.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So I would refer to that stuff to  
provide you the information -- the answers to your questions  
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as to why we're putting this forth. I do have somebody else  
that is -- do you have any other comments that you would  
like to make on any of the rules?  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Yeah, I do. But see, that  
answer isn't sufficient, because I've read it, and there is  
no state or federal law requiring you to do so. And part of  
the logic is because it helps us establish identity and  
there is no existence guidance on there. Just because  
there's no existing guidance on something doesn't mean  
you're required to make a rule regarding it when it does not  
serve the will of the people. This actually disenfranchises  
millions of people -- not millions -- excuse me -- thousands  
of people who want to run for office, especially people in  
low-income and middle-income communities will be  
disenfranchised the worse, because they lack the resources  
to hire all the necessary people to comb through all these  
ridiculous rules.  
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So my question, again, is why the rule? It does  
not help establish identity. That's bogus, because the  
Secretary of State already does that. It's part of her job  
description. She already has access to all the records, so  
why put that burden on the clerks? Why? The answer in the  
RS -- RIS form is not sufficient.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So I would refer you to that, as  
well. I have taken your comments, and we have your comments  
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in the record, and we will take them into consideration as  
we move forth. I do have another person that wishes --  
MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Thank you.  
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MR. FRACASSI: -- to speak.  
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(Off the record interruption)  
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MR. FRACASSI: Mr. Valentin, you had indicated you  
signed up, and I think I inadvertently --  
MR. VALENTIN DUMITRESCU: (inaudible) say "no" to  
speak? Because I said -- I thought I said, "yes," to  
comment on --  
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MR. FRACASSI: I think I accidentally -- I'm  
sorry. So is it for Rule 062; correct?  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. FRACASSI: Can I let him speak first, and then  
get back to you?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes.  
MR. VALENTIN DUMITRESCU: So I'm Valentin  
Dumitrescu. I don't think I have to spell my name.  
MR. FRACASSI: And just for the record, the court  
reporter's sake, this is on Rule Set 062.  
MR. VALENTIN DUMITRESCU: 062, yes. The absentee  
ballot is a great opportunity for fraud, and a normal  
election has a person who knows for good reasons -- good  
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reasons; out of state, out of the country -- requests --  
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this initiative requests the ballot and signs it in ink,  
with a hand. This is a normal election. Now, this rule  
will just trash this normal election rule and will make it  
even more available for people to submit for multiple  
ballots.  
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And as a matter of fact, I already show that  
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34,448 ballots were either two, three or four copy  
duplicate, most -- majority two copy duplicate. If you  
divide by two, it's 17,000. It's 1.5 more than the  
difference between the two candidates, Biden and Trump. So  
we need the absen- -- so we need to eliminate the -- this  
rule is to be rejected, and I oppose it, so that people go  
back to the normal way of a secure way to make sure that  
they vote by taking the initiative, asking for a ballot,  
either in person at the clerk office, or through mail, with  
a handwritten, ink signature.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Just a really brief comment I  
wanted to make -- to point out the fact that not one person  
here today, as far as I can recall -- I might be wrong --  
but not one person has spoken in favor of any of these  
rules. So I believe that that should be -- that should be a  
defacto reason right there just to withdraw the rule. With  
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this much public opposition, I don't know how the Secretary  
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can proceed with such a flawed rule. If you had even one  
person here in favor of it, maybe it would be -- we could  
have more of a debate. It -- this -- there's no debate  
here. This thing should be withdrawn. Thank you.  
MR. FRACASSI: So the next person I have that has  
signed up to speak is Kim Cousino. I might be  
mispronouncing that last name. So I'm going to ask -- I  
have two that you wish to testify on; correct?  
MS. KIM COUSINO: Yes.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So I'm going to ask first, if we  
could speak on Rule Set 061, which is the signature  
matching, and then we can -- we'll reset the time and we'll  
switch to Rule Set 062, which is the online voter -- absent  
voter ballot application. So if we could start with the  
first one, just for the court reporter, just to be clear.  
MS. KIM COUSINO: Okay.  
MR. FRACASSI: And so whenever you're ready, go  
ahead.  
MS. KIM COUSINO: It's Cousino (phonetic). Thank  
you.  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
MS. KIM COUSINO: I'm speaking in opposition to  
the rules for signature matching standards for absentee  
voter ballot applications and the envelopes. In my opinion,  
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these rules are of the lowest of standards. We can do  
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better, and we have to do better. On Wednesday, September  
29th, I attended a virtual session with CISA. The topic of  
the presentation was "Election Security, Building Trust  
Through Secure Practices." The main topic was "Building  
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Public Trust in Elections, Encounter Mis- and Disinformation  
Through Related Communications and Transparency."  
As the clerk of a township who verifies these  
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signatures, I do believe in the relevant facts, and the  
facts are that all signatures would be presumed valid.  
Signatures with differences that aren't multiple,  
significant, and obvious are valid. Signatures with all of  
these deficiencies may still be accepted if one redeeming  
factor is determined, whether or not it negates the multiple  
significant and obvious deficiencies. The most confusing  
factor to consider while verifying the validity of a  
signature is the voter's primary language. How would any  
language contribute to differing characteristics in a  
voter's signature? I have asked the Bureau of Elections  
this question and I'm still awaiting the answer.  
The hypocrisy here is palpable. On one hand,  
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state government officials are boasting about the secure  
election practices, every signature is deemed valid only  
after a rigorous matching process. And then on the other  
hand, our state government's directives are to presume all  
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signatures are valid.  
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The Board of Elections are supposed to provide us  
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clerks examples of signatures with redeeming qualities and  
questionable signatures. I contacted the Bureau of  
Elections and asked where I can view the examples of these  
signatures. I was informed they already exist with the  
updated date of April 2nd, 2021. These guidelines are  
terrible.  
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The regulatory impact statement states  
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different -- states that they looked at with their  
guidelines and they noted Colorado. I looked up Colorado's  
signature verification guide and it's 20 pages long compared  
to the four pages here today. Based on the material  
provided by the State of Colorado, I would assume that they  
went above and beyond in order to provide in-depth training  
and guidelines to their election officials. Why isn't the  
State of Michigan offering the same courtesy to its election  
officials responsible for verifying thousands of signatures  
each election?  
There is a senate bill introduced, and it is in  
the elections Committee. The bill reads,  
"Establish and require signature verification  
training for all county, city, and township clerks, and  
for all precinct inspectors that complies with the  
rules promulgated by Secretary of State under  
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subsection 3, for an objective signature verification  
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process."  
Subsection 3 states,  
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"The objective signature verification process must  
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not include a presumption regarding the validity of any  
signature that is to be verified."  
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Secretary Benson should be working with the legislature to  
establish such a law and produce sufficient training and  
material to clerks and election inspectors. There is no  
mention of training election officials in the proposed  
rules. Instead it appears the intention to bypass  
legislature entirely and quietly pass the rules using this  
Administrative Procedures Act.  
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There are notifications sent daily through email  
on the Secretary's State (sic) on opinions on proposed  
rules, along with the Attorney General and the Governor.  
They consistently trumpet their support or opposition to  
legislature and rules, even in other states. Why are they  
not shining as much light on the rules here today if they  
will, in fact, benefit our electoral process? I don't know  
about others here, but I am not a forensic handwriting  
analysist (phonetic) and will no -- be no closer to becoming  
one with the seven examples of signatures provided by the  
Bureau of Elections and directed to assume all signatures  
are valid, no matter the amount of the deficiencies.  
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As one of many clerks in Michigan responsible for  
verifying signatures, I request these rules be taken back to  
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the drawing board, and that more stringent standards be  
applied, and proper training be provided to clerks and  
election inspectors. Evil is everywhere in our world today,  
and we cannot, in good faith, presume it is not involved in  
our election process.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you. I would like to switch  
to -- now to the online absent voter ballot application,  
that's Rule Set 062. We do have a timer, just so -- you  
probably heard it. I neglected to say --  
MS. KIM COUSINO: Oh, okay. Sorry.  
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MR. FRACASSI: -- try and keep it to two minutes  
as much as possible.  
MS. KIM COUSINO: Okay.  
MR. FRACASSI: You are able to also submit written  
comments. I know you came late, so that's why I just want  
to --  
MS. KIM COUSINO: Thank you.  
MR. FRACASSI: -- to go over it. I should have  
done that beforehand. You can also submit written comments  
to: elections@Michigan.gov, if you would like, as well, and  
those have to be received by 5:00 o'clock today. So if you  
would also like to submit written after the hearing, please  
feel free.  
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MS. KIM COUSINO: Okay.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So I would like to turn it to you  
now. This is your public comment for online absent voter  
ballot application, Rule set 062.  
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MS. KIM COUSINO: Okay. According to an AARP  
article published February the 5th, 2021, titled, "Pandemic  
proves to be a fertile ground for identity thieves," based  
on the FTC reporting, the number of identity theft cases  
more than doubled in 2020 from 2019. The FTC has an  
interactive map that breaks down fraud by state, year, and  
quarter.  
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In Michigan, in all of 2020, there were 93,387  
total number of fraud, identity theft, and other reports  
made. Of those, there were over 12,000 imposter scams. Two  
quarters into 2021, we have already bypassed the number of  
imposter scams reported at over 13,000. According to the  
regulatory impact statement and cost benefit analysis, the  
proposed rules presented would codify current practices  
established in 2020 as a result of the pandemic. It will  
allow a voter to submit an application through a portal  
online that captures the voter's signature on their driver's  
license and applies it to the application.  
Now, when we receive these applications, we do go  
through the signature verification. In this case, 100  
percent of the signatures would match, because the  
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QVF signature is what is printed on the application. There  
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would be no doubt, room, for a -- fraud to come in and take  
somebody's identity, and unbeknownst to them, apply for an  
absentee ballot online.  
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The rules to protect health and safety and welfare  
and promote regulatory environment in Michigan, that is the  
last burdensome alternative, because it provides additional  
methods for obtaining ballots in attempts to remove or  
lessen existing barriers. For example, current practices  
require a voter to download and print the absentee voter  
ballot application. After completion, the form is mailed to  
the voter's local clerk. By allowing submission online,  
certain barriers, such as printing and mailing, are limited.  
This is the answer to RIS question number eight.  
The argument here as posed is meritless.  
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(inaudible) of voters are expected to complete an FPCA,  
which requires downloading, printing, physically signing,  
and either scanning or mailing back to your local clerk.  
The same downloading and printing process applies to the  
MOVE ballots that are electronically sent to our service  
men.  
I had a specific voter in 2020 who overcame these  
barriers while stationed in Iraq. If they can do it, I'm  
sure anybody here in Michigan can do the same. Thank you.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Right on.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
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UNKNOWN SPEAKER: A couple things --  
MR. NOVAK: Have you signed in, sir? -- to speak?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I will. I definitely want you  
guys to know that I was the one that said this stuff. So  
I'll definitely give that to you. First of all, Senator  
McBroom, who I'm speaking with right now, is not happy at  
all that you guys won't identify yourselves by name. So  
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maybe by the end of the meeting we can get that? The second  
part of that being, according to the Secretary of State's  
website -- today, we're having the meeting about people  
applying for absentee voter ballots online.  
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So why is it already on their website that voters  
can request an absentee ballot in multiple ways? You can  
complete an online application at, "Michigan.gov/vote." So  
why is that already a thing if we're having the meeting  
today about it? So since we're having the meeting today  
about it, and it's already been implemented, along with some  
previous things -- you know -- thank you. Maybe a few  
seconds back at the end -- but the importance of this today  
is because under the United States Code 52, subsection  
20511, they discuss election fraud as defined as knowingly  
and willfully depriving, defrauding, or attempting to  
deprive or defraud the residents of a state of a fair and  
impartially conducted election by the procurement or  
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submission of voter registration applications that are known  
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by the person to be false -- "materially false, fictitious,  
or fraudulent under the laws of the State."  
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The laws previously, and this one now with the  
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online application process, are not listed in our election  
laws as a way that you can apply for an absentee voter  
ballot, or a way that you can submit a ballot at all. So  
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that means she's already been in violation of the state law,  
willfully, knowingly; already in violation of the law.  
So to me, United States Code 52, dealing with  
election fraud, would already apply to Secretary Benson,  
which shall be defined in accordance with Title 18 in which  
fines shall be paid into the general fund of the Treasury,  
miscellaneous receipts pursuant to section 3302 of Title 31,  
notwithstanding any other law, or in prison not more than  
five years, or both. Her accountability needs to be seen,  
it needs to be upheld, and I (inaudible) names, first and  
last, by the end of the meeting, that would be really  
appreciated by all of us.  
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MR. NOVAK: Which rule were you speaking on,  
specifically?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That would be the online  
application process.  
MR. NOVAK: Okay. Yeah, is that the form -- okay.  
Yeah. That's the form right there.  
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(Off the record interruption)  
MR. FRACASSI: I think we do have somebody else  
that just signed up, as well.  
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(Off the record interruption)  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Ryan Roberts, here again. I  
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drove four hours to make sure our voices are heard all  
across the state. I wish I could ask, why would anybody  
want to weaken the election system? But I know the answer.  
I did my research. I've been researching this stuff for 14  
years. The deep state, the cabal, corruption -- you known  
what I'm saying? So we know why Jocelyn want to weaken the  
election. She's a criminal. She's unlawful.  
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Why is there no media here? Why wasn't the clerks  
notified? Because she want to do criminalistic activities  
under the radar, not letting people know. I don't know if  
you-all know you-all working for criminals. You know? Is  
one of you-all names Mr. Fracassi? -- Fracasy (phonetic)? --  
Fracassi? However you say it. Is that one of you-all?  
MR. FRACASSI: Yes.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: That's you?  
MR. FRACASSI: Yes.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Okay. You didn't fill out them  
RIS forms correctly, Mr. Fracassi. You need to step down,  
too. You know what I'm saying? Jocelyn Benson, your-all  
boss, she's corrupt. The Bureau of Elections, you-all  
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scared to give you-all names out, because you-all know you-  
all supporting criminals or you're all complicit to the  
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criminal activity. You know what I'm saying? So why is the  
form not filled out? Why is it filled out deceitfully, Mr.  
Fracassi? Everybody write their name down. Mr. Fracassi,  
why didn't you compare it to other standards in other states  
and other -- hello? Mr. Fracassi?  
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MR. FRACASSI: I am listening to you. Please  
continue --  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Okay. Why didn't you fill out  
the form correctly? I think it should be voided just  
because you didn't put in the proper information that's  
needed to know what's going on with these rules. Did you  
fill out the other ones? Because they all should be null  
and void, because you are purposely keeping information from  
these forms that's supposed to be in these forms so we can  
make proper assessments and conclusions as to what's behind  
these rules. Actually, it's corruption, and you complicit,  
too, because you filled out the forms, Mr. Fracassi.  
(Off the record interruption)  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Can I get you-all name, or are  
you deaf, mute --  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay. So we're going to move on  
now.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Hello; hello.  
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MR. FRACASSI: We're going to move on now. Thank  
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you.  
MR. NOVAK: We've got another speaker.  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: No; no. We, The people, hold  
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the power.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Yes; yes. We're going to move on  
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now. We have another speaker.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: We, The People, hold the power.  
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You-all can't have a civilized conversation --  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir; sir --  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: -- a two-way conversation? We  
got to have our names, address --  
MR. FRACASSI: We are -- have another speaker; we  
have another speaker, sir.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: -- but you-all don't have to  
provide -- you-all names?  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir, we have another speaker.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: We've got to find it out  
ourselves?  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir, we have another speaker behind  
you that would like to speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: We all saying the same stuff.  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir, we have another person that  
would like to speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: And he's also (inaudible), for  
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these rules. You-all going to hear the same -- you-all not  
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even listening. Well, you-all not even listening.  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir, we have another person that  
would like to speak, that I would like to call up.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: You corrupt -- all you-all  
are --  
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(Off the record interruption)  
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MR. NOVAK: Call the next person.  
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MR. FRACASSI: I would like to call up Lauren  
Pendergraff at this time.  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Mr. Fracassi, you need to learn  
how to fill out forms correctly. I can't even stand to be  
in the presence of (inaudible) smart preachers. You-all  
want us to be nice and politically correct --  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay. Sir, we have a person that  
would like to speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: (Inaudible) --  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir, we have a person that would  
like to speak. Please let her speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: You-all are destroying our  
country.  
MR. FRACASSI: Please let her speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: You-all are destroying our  
country.  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir; sir, I -- thank you. You've  
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had your chance to speak. Please let her speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: (inaudible) our country. It's  
hard for me to sit here --  
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MR. FRACASSI: I -- I thank you for your comments.  
You have given your comments. I have heard your comments.  
You are not letting this individual speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: (inaudible) destroying our  
country.  
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MR. FRACASSI: Please let this individual speak.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Sorry. I'm sorry, ma'am. I'm  
sorry. It's hard; it's hard.  
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MS. LAUREN PENDERGRAFF: I know. I know it's  
hard.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: We all frustrated with these  
people.  
MS. LAUREN PENDERGRAFF: My name is Lauren  
Pendergraff, L-a-u-r-e-n, P-e-n-d-e-r-g-r-a-f-f. It's very  
obvious that we are all in vehement opposition to these  
three measures, and that there is a lot of emotion here. I  
would just like to -- my husband and I looked over a very  
extensive article, and this is pertaining to the last  
measure, the 062 that has to do with digital signatures  
versus manual signatures and the potential for fraud. I  
would just like to read one paragraph out of this article,  
and this is what can happen if there -- if fraud does  
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happen. It says,  
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"Handwritten signatures are extremely simple and  
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easy to understand. The forensics techniques used to  
detect fraud are easily explained to lawyer, judges,  
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and juries. Digital signatures are fiendishly complex,  
involving arcane number theory, the workings of  
computer operating systems, communication protocols,  
certificate chain processing, certificate policies, and  
so on.  
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There are very few people on this plant, if any,  
who completely understand every process involved in  
generating and verifying a digital signature. The  
potential for confused lawyers, judges, and juries is  
extreme."  
So not only if fraud were to take place, it could be -- it's  
almost impossible to prove. So I would just like to leave  
you with that. Thank you.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Thank you.  
MR. NOVAK: Okay. We have one last person signed  
up to speak, and then we will be closing the hearing. I  
just wanted to point out, for those of you who didn't show  
up here when we opened the hearing. I introduced myself as  
Doug Novak. I'm the regulatory affairs officer. This  
(indicating) is Adam Fracassi, from the Michigan Department  
of State, the subject matter expert from the Bureau of  
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Elections. And we are -- again, here to hear your public  
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comment, and Adam will call the last person.  
MR. FRACASSI: I -- Lisa Capatina.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
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MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Can we get a statement from  
Adam (inaudible) --  
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MR. FRACASSI: No, we are going to -- we are going  
to listen to Ms. Capatina speak, please.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: Can we get a statement  
(inaudible) --  
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MR. FRACASSI: We are going to have -- Ms.  
Capatina is going to come up and speak. We are going to let  
Ms. Capatina come to provide her public comment.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: (inaudible)  
MR. FRACASSI: Sir; sir. Ms. Capatina has not  
gotten to speak. You have -- we have listened to your  
public comment.  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: (inaudible)  
MR. FRACASSI: We have -- it is her turn to speak.  
Let her speak.  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible)  
MR. RYAN ROBERTS: She can speak. I -- he can  
speak, too; right?  
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: This is a public --  
MR. FRACASSI: Thank you.  
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MS. LISA CAPATINA: My name Lisa Capatina, and I  
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would like to reiterate again my opposition to all three  
suggestions that Secretary of State Benson would like to  
move forward. I am also going to reiterate that I'm  
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embarrassed that it took until I was the age of almost 60 to  
actually pay attention to politics. I was seeking my  
education. I was working in public health and raising my  
family, and I just let the process roll. After the last 18  
months, I'm awake, and I realize that I do need to use my  
voice because silence will just allow everything to move  
forward at status quo. I am really trying to exercise and  
educate myself.  
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I've attended hearings, most of them via Zoom, but  
I've watched other people speak. I've watched them be  
disrespected. I feel that I don't really have a voice, even  
though I am here speaking today, based on some of the  
comments that were made about things that have already moved  
forward. And so I appreciate, because I was a little late,  
that you were able to identify yourself and tell us where  
you are from, but I really would like to know what the  
process is when we leave today.  
Do all these comments just go into a computer  
database, or is there a separate ad hoc committee, or a  
re-group with the committee? Because the person who really  
needed to hear what we had to say was Secretary of State  
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Benson, and she's not here. So what happens to our voice?  
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What happens to our comments? If you could at least just  
allude to that, I would be very grateful. Thank you.  
MR. NOVAK: We -- I'm sorry. So we --  
MR. RONALD PIOTROWSKI: (inaudible) I only need a  
moment.  
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MR. NOVAK: Which rule set would you --  
MR. RONALD PIOTROWSKI: Well, actually all three.  
I spoke in opposition. I have an addendum to my comments.  
I've sat here and listened for over two hours, to all these  
lovely people in this room, many of whom --  
MR. NOVAK: Your name again, sir?  
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MR. RONALD PIOTROWSKI: I just want to say --  
MR. NOVAK: Your name, again, so we know who --  
MR. RONALD PIOTROWSKI: My name is Ronald  
Piotrowski.  
MR. NOVAK: Okay.  
MR. RONALD PIOTROWSKI: R-o-n-a-l-d P-i-o-t-r-o-w-  
s-k-i. All these people that were here today, speaking to  
you, you can see their passion, you can see their emotion,  
you can see how upset we, the public, are at what is going  
on in our country, and what is going on with our only legal  
avenue, the right to vote. And that's all we want, is a  
fair election and the right to vote. So we all came here,  
and we prepared commentary, and we are citing laws and  
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1
rules. We're calling all types of referential information.  
2
3
I don't know for sure what good it does. I hope  
it does some. My question is -- we thank you, and we  
appreciate the opportunity to voice these concerns to you.  
What I don't have the confidence in -- do you guys really  
listen to the public? Are you listening to what these good  
people are telling you? We are all so upset that we can  
barely hold our emotions in about what is going on in the  
State of Michigan and across the entire country. And we  
4
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
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25  
need people like you to take this message back to the people  
that make these silly rules, and break them, and then do  
things the way they want to in order to get an outcome that  
they prefer, and walk all over voter rights. It's just not  
correct. It's wrong. It's criminal.  
I mean, what are we do to? We have no other  
avenue but our voice in a hearing like this, and our vote.  
And you want to take that vote and make it such that  
fraudulent representation can take my vote and skew it. My  
vote may not have counted. It might be somebody who stole  
my vote, my ballot, and put it in. So I beg and I pray that  
you people are listening to the message that is delivered.  
Not one person spoke in support of any one of these issues  
today. That speaks volumes to me.  
So what I would like to do is ask you to take this  
back to the people who need to know and share it with them,  
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and let them see how passionate the public is. They need to  
2
3
pay attention, and they need to follow the rule of law.  
That being said, if you choose not to do that, I would like  
4
to simply say let's take one moment of silence for the death  
of voter rights in the State of Michigan if you don't take  
this message back properly.  
5
6
7
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Thank you, Ron.  
8
MR. NOVAK: Thank you; thank you, and thank all of  
you who came for comments. Additional comments regarding  
the proposed rules that you may wish to share with us can be  
submitted in writing to, again, as I stated in the  
beginning: elections@Michigan.gov; again, it's:  
elections@Michigan.gov. The record will remain open until  
5:00 o'clock today. It is 11:07, and I declare this hearing  
closed. Thank you.  
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
(Hearing concluded at 11:07 a.m.)  
-0-0-0-  
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accepted 20:24  
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access 42:25 62:23  
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accidentally 72:13  
accommodate 6:9  
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accountability  
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accountable 26:17  
accountant 9:3  
accountants 8:20  
accounts 62:3  
accuracy 26:9 52:15  
allowed 46:14  
attitude 22:8  
attorney 8:20 9:3  
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46:13 67:17 80:12 applied 78:4  
allude 91:3  
alternative 80:7  
amazing 38:10  
amend 66:16  
applies 62:19 79:22  
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apply 35:7,19 80:3  
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applying 13:5 81:12  
appreciate 21:2  
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appreciated 82:19  
appropriate 5:16  
61:11  
attorneys 42:25  
audio 46:1 66:8  
audit 14:1 37:14,17  
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August 48:19  
authenticity 21:23  
authority 26:16  
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authorized 62:20  
available 70:24 73:5  
Avallone 2:16 3:1  
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Adding 11:2  
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analogous 61:9  
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approve 34:12  
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answer 61:6 71:7,24 April 76:7  
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answers 69:9 70:11  
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additionally 7:16  
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arguing 39:7  
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anticipating 50:7  
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avenue 91:23 92:16  
awaiting 75:20  
adjudicating 44:16  
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administrative 1:5  
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admit 9:21  
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advance 29:23  
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advise 43:1  
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affairs 88:23  
affidavit 4:8 6:19  
8:1 10:2 14:10,11 appeals 11:11,12,14  
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affirm 70:5,7  
affix 61:14  
afford 8:19 9:2  
afraid 50:20  
age 14:15 23:18,19  
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agenda 27:6 29:23  
ago 8:2 48:4  
anybody 10:25  
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anymore 46:24  
anyways 47:19 66:7 arrogance 26:17  
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apologize 47:17  
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app- 35:24  
apparently 6:3  
appeal 8:4,6,15,23  
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arms 25:8  
aware 8:9 28:2  
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awe 48:23  
article 79:6 87:21  
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aside 44:25  
asked 69:8 75:19  
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asking 49:25 50:13  
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asks 53:20  
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61:22 63:17 72:17  
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background 44:7  
bad 39:15  
Baker 39:2  
bal- 65:1  
ballot 1:5 4:7,9,9,10  
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appears 20:25 35:10 assault 21:12  
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assessments 84:17  
applicant 28:22  
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application 1:5 4:10  
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assistant 61:2  
associations 15:21  
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assume 30:5 76:14  
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assumed 39:13  
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carried 21:14  
carry 18:2 65:5  
Carter 39:1  
circulation 4:15  
circumvent 21:21  
CISA 75:3  
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case 11:8 12:16  
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cases 36:3 79:8  
cause 50:12  
citing 91:25  
citizen 8:20,25  
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citizens 10:7 30:8  
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bill 19:6 61:10 76:20 burdensome 7:17  
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70:13 73:6,8 80:8 bills 13:14,21 24:20 Bureau 1:4,16 4:13 cell 4:23  
citizens' 49:7,17  
city 7:18 17:24 22:4  
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barely 92:8  
barriers 80:9,13,23 bipartisan 38:25  
based 4:7 6:18 11:1 birth 70:17  
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censorship 13:23  
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centuries 68:2  
CER 1:20  
burn 33:14  
civilized 85:9  
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basic 21:7  
blank 11:7 37:25  
blatant 52:5  
bless 53:2  
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business 15:6 65:11  
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certain 34:1,1 39:13 claim 29:10 70:15  
80:13 claiming 39:7  
certainly 42:25 49:1 claims 21:18 23:11  
basically 12:23  
33:14  
basis 38:11 39:16  
becoming 77:22  
beg 92:20  
beginning 17:1  
31:20 32:6 93:12  
begins 38:13  
blind 27:7  
blinded 51:21  
blink 55:13  
block 41:14  
board 46:7 76:2  
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boasting 75:22  
body 56:25 57:6,8  
busy 24:21  
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clarified 32:13  
clarify 7:23  
butcher 5:23  
bypass 77:11  
bypassed 79:15  
certificate 88:8,8  
certificates 70:17  
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chain 88:8  
chair 6:2 31:9 60:12 class 64:9  
chaired 39:1  
clarity 54:2  
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classification 62:23  
challenger 22:1 46:6 clear 10:21 22:6  
call 5:10,21 6:16,20  
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called 4:4 15:1 29:5  
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calling 30:17 92:1  
calls 21:10  
campaign 1:2 8:8,13  
17:25 40:13  
candidate 16:6 69:9  
candidate's 10:1  
candidates 12:23  
behalf 4:13 8:7 23:5 bogus 71:21  
challengers 46:13  
challenges 43:16  
chance 5:5 53:5  
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change 18:3 25:17  
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complex 88:5  
compliance 16:3  
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codify 79:18  
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college 64:8  
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confusing 75:15  
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consent 58:16  
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cost 79:17  
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comment 5:1,2,3,8  
5:11,13,14,15  
20:1 24:13 32:9  
47:7 55:21 57:3  
58:6,7 64:19  
65:25 66:4 69:21  
69:25 70:10 72:12 computers 46:7  
73:20 79:3 89:2  
89:13,17  
commentary 91:25  
complicit 54:18 84:2 contempt 21:20  
84:18  
contents 2:1 4:7  
6:19 69:3  
continue 30:21,22  
84:9  
continued 3:4,7,9,11  
49:4  
contradict 43:16  
contradiction 32:10 cover 52:8  
contradicts 32:2  
60:21 64:25  
complied 41:5,6  
complies 76:24  
compromised 45:14  
computer 30:20,21  
54:24 64:8 88:7  
90:22  
concern 9:23 11:12  
concerned 11:23  
49:16 51:17  
crazy 34:4 54:17  
crazy-easy 27:25  
contrary 36:1 52:13 create 21:2 32:11  
contribute 75:18 52:8  
control 29:17 66:17 creating 59:12  
comments 4:24 5:18 concerning 11:10  
6:5,7,11,12 23:8  
24:18 29:3 47:13  
47:14 48:15,22  
55:20,24 71:4  
72:2,2 78:17,21  
87:4,5,5 90:17,22 conclusion 67:19  
33:6,13  
concerns 35:3,3  
48:16,21 92:4  
concluded 14:2  
93:16  
67:1  
Creator 51:17  
crime 59:16  
criminal 16:17  
19:18 83:12 84:3  
92:14  
controls 70:18  
conversation 85:9  
85:11  
copy 73:8,9  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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defend 50:9,13,18  
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deficiencies 38:17  
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defined 35:8 81:22  
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defines 35:17  
definitely 49:12  
81:4,6  
definitive 69:9  
defraud 81:24  
defrauding 81:23  
delegate 8:1,2  
deliberately 42:20  
69:12  
deliver 61:2  
delivered 92:21  
DeMalleo 2:20  
49:19,20,23 50:2  
50:4,7,16,20  
DeMarco 2:13  
25:20,21,24,24  
26:1  
determine 32:4  
determined 75:14  
determining 32:1  
Detroit 1:10 4:5  
22:4  
difference 41:22  
67:8 73:11  
differences 20:21  
75:11  
different 15:21  
76:10  
differing 75:18  
difficult 10:25 19:10 DNA 15:6  
19:14  
dishonestly 37:16  
Disinformation 75:6 earth 46:9  
disqualification 4:7 easier 12:19 19:12  
6:18 16:5 17:20  
69:3  
disqualified 8:3  
11:11 16:8 69:20  
disqualify 8:23 10:6 economy 14:9 24:22  
11:17 69:15  
disregard 52:5  
disrespected 90:15  
divide 73:10  
earlier 63:19  
40:11 41:4 42:14  
49:9 51:25 52:1  
52:21 54:10 57:9  
58:14 59:15,25  
60:13 63:22 64:11  
67:12 75:6,19  
76:2,5,21 77:24  
83:25 89:1  
28:19 43:12  
easily 88:4  
easy 88:3  
echo 23:8  
edict 43:7  
elections@michgi...  
6:8  
educate 90:12  
education 90:7  
effect 25:15  
effort 19:13 44:21  
45:1  
elections@Michig...  
78:22 93:12,13  
electoral 77:20  
electrical 13:24  
electronic 1:21  
61:25 62:10,20  
68:6  
electronically 48:4  
80:20  
Elias 41:9 42:2  
eliminate 23:7,10  
47:25 52:14 73:12  
document 62:13  
documentation 11:4 efforts 24:22  
documents 36:3  
41:2 42:4  
doing 7:1,2 16:7  
dig 24:25  
digital 15:4 36:5  
60:23 63:6,8  
87:22 88:5,12  
dilemma 30:4  
dilute 43:13  
diminish 27:3  
direct 29:9,16 30:7  
30:8 32:10 36:7  
58:19  
directed 64:2 77:24 donor 29:20  
direction 19:14  
24:23 26:12  
directive 26:19  
directives 32:11  
75:25  
directly 32:2 60:21  
64:25  
eight 80:14  
either 37:21 47:25  
73:8,16 80:18  
44:5 45:4,6 49:16 elderly 34:7  
68:1 69:16 70:13  
domestic 16:18  
dominator 27:24  
dominion 14:22  
68:3,6  
elected 10:7 19:11  
63:12  
election 13:2 14:4  
16:11,13,19 21:13 eliminating 23:17  
21:19,24 22:3,10  
23:6,9,10,24,25  
24:3 26:7,8,12,15  
27:2 28:17 29:15  
29:17,22 32:3  
else's 59:13  
email 5:25 62:3,14  
77:14  
emailing 6:8  
embarrassed 90:5  
emotion 87:19 91:20  
doom 14:2  
Democrat 44:15  
45:3  
democratic 45:2  
Democrats 13:4  
26:24  
door 25:14 51:5  
doubled 79:9  
doubt 80:2  
Doug 4:17 88:23  
DOUGLAS 1:14  
download 80:10  
downloading 80:17  
80:19  
34:9,15 36:14,16  
36:18,19,24 37:12 emotions 92:8  
38:1,25 39:5,16 Encounter 75:6  
40:11,23 41:15,15 encourages 23:13  
43:2 44:11 45:14 ended 24:24  
46:18 47:20 48:13 enemies 64:9  
deny 27:25  
department 1:2  
4:13 6:7 57:15  
60:18 63:9,10  
disability 34:2  
disabled 32:1  
disappointed 9:6  
Dr 23:8  
48:16,17,18 49:7  
enforcement 43:10  
65:19,21,22 88:24 disclosing 63:13,16  
drawing 78:3  
driver's 61:15 79:21  
drop 47:23  
49:14 51:19 52:14 enhance 49:9 67:3,4  
deprive 81:24  
depriving 81:23  
described 37:4  
describes 62:17  
description 71:23  
design 37:20  
63:17  
52:17 54:8 59:16  
59:21 60:21,25  
63:20 64:15,23,24  
66:11 67:6,23  
enslaved 15:5  
ensure 5:7 8:18 38:1  
38:23 67:11  
discourages 12:16  
discredit 14:10  
discrepancies 27:8  
discrimination  
23:18,20,21  
drove 83:6  
droves 24:20  
due 44:4 51:22  
69:20,22  
Dumitrescu 2:7,16  
3:8 12:9,10,11,12  
12:15 37:7,8  
entered 41:6  
69:6,15 72:25  
entire 19:8 41:3  
48:19 92:9  
entirely 77:12  
entitled 4:6  
73:3,4 75:4,23  
76:16,17,19 77:9  
77:10 78:5,7  
designated 5:6  
desire 51:25  
discuss 81:22  
disdain 26:17  
desires 51:15 52:18 disenfranchise 8:16  
81:22,25 82:5,11  
83:8,12 91:24  
entrance 5:8  
desk 6:6 26:3  
destroying 14:9  
86:20,23 87:7  
detail 19:3 24:25  
54:4 55:4  
59:21  
disenfranchised  
71:17  
disenfranchises  
7:15 71:13  
72:10,19,20,23  
duplicate 73:9,9  
envelope 37:22  
envelopes 4:10 20:6  
35:15,21 74:25  
environment 80:6  
error 8:6,14,24,25  
9:4 14:10 19:17  
69:18  
elections 1:2,4,16  
4:14,18 8:10,12  
8:24 10:4 11:19  
13:18 23:15 27:1  
27:4 28:18 29:11  
29:13 30:1 31:9  
35:4 36:13 37:3  
E
E 12:11 37:10  
E-t-h-a-n 40:2  
e-t-t 31:8  
detect 88:4  
determination  
32:13,15  
disfranch- 7:14  
disgrace 14:21  
disgusted 28:16  
E-v-e-l-y-n 23:4  
errors 8:24 10:1  
Page 4  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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especially 9:23  
extreme 11:7 42:14  
88:14  
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filed 18:1 40:15  
formal 34:16 41:19  
former 31:9 39:1  
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forms 54:1,1,6 70:4  
83:23 84:16,16,19  
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formula 38:21  
forth 47:14 71:3  
72:4  
forward 5:23 12:1  
90:4,11,18  
fought 52:24  
found 37:23 40:16  
44:6  
foundation 12:17  
four 61:16 73:8  
76:13 83:6  
74:6,11,18,22  
78:8,13,16,20  
79:2 81:1 83:2,17  
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84:5,5,7,8,19,23  
85:1,6,10,13,17  
85:20,23 86:3,9  
86:11,15,18,22,25  
87:4,9 88:24 89:3  
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Fracasy 83:17  
28:19 64:21 71:15 extremely 9:6 48:25 fill 47:22,22 69:11  
Esq 1:14  
essential 29:12  
establish 70:15 71:9 eyes 21:8  
71:21 76:22 77:8  
88:2  
eye 27:7  
83:22 84:10,14  
86:12  
filled 54:4 84:4,4,19  
filling 34:10  
F
established 79:19  
Finally 37:2 52:22  
finance 1:2 8:8,13  
11:5 17:25,25  
financial 64:3  
find 7:19 18:10  
19:10 24:1 60:14  
66:3 85:18  
fine 16:7 33:16  
fines 16:4 82:13  
fingers 54:25  
finish 30:25  
firm 1:22 69:9  
first 6:24 13:15,16  
13:25 20:1,2,12  
40:2 43:24 48:18  
58:11 66:10,15  
72:16 74:11,16  
81:6 82:17  
five 30:13 82:16  
Fix 68:1  
fixing 52:7  
flagrantly 51:24  
flawed 74:2  
flaws 51:23  
folks 34:6 56:23  
62:22  
follow 26:15 33:24  
93:2  
following 48:13  
foolish 11:14  
foolproof 38:21  
for- 47:16  
forced 43:15  
forceful 26:24  
foreign 16:18  
forensic 64:8,9  
77:21  
face 16:5  
faced 30:3  
Ethan 2:17 39:20,22  
39:24 40:2,5,10  
Evelyn 2:12,22  
22:14 23:4,4  
56:22,22 57:5,16  
57:23  
everybody 4:23 6:4  
23:16,16 26:6  
41:1,1 45:21  
facilitate 5:1 39:15  
facilitating 4:19  
facilitation 20:19  
21:17  
fact 21:13 73:7,21  
77:20  
factor 20:24 23:18  
38:18 75:14,16  
factors 31:24 32:16  
facts 75:9,10  
failed 24:22  
fair 23:15 27:1,3  
46:18 52:2 81:24  
91:24  
faith 10:1 39:15  
52:20 78:6  
fake 21:2 29:6,6,7  
58:22,22,23 59:1  
faking 59:1  
false 30:4 82:2,2  
familiar 42:1  
families 51:15  
family 90:8  
famous 21:3  
far 73:22  
favor 41:25 73:23  
74:3  
feature 43:11  
February 79:6  
federal 7:16 23:24  
38:25 41:12 65:20  
71:8  
feel 6:24 15:23  
30:15 33:22 50:8  
78:25 90:15  
Frank 61:25  
fraud 20:19 21:13  
21:17 22:2 23:13  
23:25 25:15 27:25  
28:19 39:16 43:14  
46:22 48:17 49:1  
49:2,6 52:3,9 62:1  
62:10 64:15 67:4  
72:24 79:10,13  
80:2 81:22 82:11  
87:23,25 88:4,15  
fraudulent 14:2  
21:22 22:9 33:21  
34:5,11,14 37:20  
39:12 52:14 82:3  
92:18  
48:21 84:5  
fourth 13:15  
FPCA 80:16  
everybody's 24:24  
everyday 9:5 26:25  
everyone's 14:25  
30:18  
evil 54:20 78:5  
exact 42:2 61:18  
exactly 14:19 19:5  
38:15,17 39:9,11  
42:3  
Fracassi 1:13 4:17  
6:15,16 7:2,4,7,11  
9:8,13,16,19 10:9  
10:12,14,17 12:2  
12:8,13 13:9,11  
15:7,13 16:23  
17:6,9,15,21  
18:13,15,20,23  
19:22,25 20:16  
22:13,18,23 24:7  
24:10 25:19,22,25  
27:12,16,20 28:6  
example 13:1 80:9  
examples 76:3,5  
77:23  
free 6:24 13:14,23  
23:15 30:15 52:25  
67:18 78:25  
exchange 57:8  
exchanging 57:7  
exclusively 35:7  
excuse 63:6 71:14  
executive 31:10  
exercise 90:11  
exist 46:23 49:2  
76:6  
freedoms 52:24  
28:10,14,25 30:10 freely 13:13,13,23  
30:24 31:4,12,15  
32:19 33:2 34:19  
34:23,25 37:6  
38:6 39:20,23  
40:1,4 42:6,9,11  
43:4,19,21,25  
67:17,18  
Friday 1:11 4:2  
friendly 29:19  
friends 27:6  
front 17:10 26:2  
58:11  
frustrated 87:14  
FTC 79:8,9  
full 19:4  
function 12:24  
fund 82:13  
funding 18:4  
funky 44:17  
existence 71:10  
existing 25:7 36:14  
71:11 80:9  
44:3 45:17,19  
47:5 48:9 49:19  
49:21,25 50:3,6  
51:3,10 53:4,7  
55:15,20,23 56:4  
56:6,8,11,13,15  
56:18 57:3,13,17  
57:22 58:2,5 60:5 funnel 21:22  
60:10 61:22 62:12 further 27:3  
63:23 64:17 65:9  
65:12,18,21,24  
66:4 67:13 68:8  
69:1,23 70:21  
exists 11:1  
expected 80:16  
experienced 64:3  
expert 4:18 88:25  
experts 32:15  
explain 35:5 62:16  
explained 88:4  
exposing 52:7  
express 19:21 37:9  
42:13  
forensics 88:3  
forgery 38:21  
forging 34:6  
forgotten 8:3  
form 15:15,16 16:1  
34:9,10 53:20  
58:8 59:5 71:25  
80:11 82:24,25  
84:4,11  
feels 15:22  
felt 48:15,24  
fertile 79:7  
fictitious 82:2  
field 39:4  
fiendishly 88:5  
file 20:22 32:4 41:24  
48:3 59:11 60:24  
furthermore 36:24  
50:16  
future 52:23 69:15  
G
expressed 42:17  
extensive 87:21  
71:1 72:1,6,8,13  
72:16,21 73:19  
G-a-b-r-i-e-l 9:11  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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illegal 16:14 25:16  
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Garrett 2:15,24  
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generate 42:23  
generating 88:12  
genodes 15:5  
gentleman 39:22  
41:2 57:11  
86:1 89:7,7,11,12 handry 37:18,19  
hired 44:18  
historically 43:10  
history 22:3  
Hobson 2:17 39:21  
39:22,24 40:2,5  
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illegally 59:13 60:2  
illegals 68:4  
illogical 52:4  
image 36:5 63:8  
immediately 21:24  
impact 70:22 76:9  
79:17  
impartially 81:25  
implement 31:18  
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89:12 90:4 91:21  
91:22 92:8  
good 4:3 6:25 9:9,16  
9:20 10:1,12,13  
15:17 16:7 21:16  
hands 14:16 24:1  
handwriting 32:15  
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handwritten 62:7  
73:17 88:2  
28:12 31:3,4 33:8 happen 33:17 87:25 hoc 90:23  
33:25 39:23,24  
51:11 72:25,25  
78:6 92:2,6  
GOP 22:1  
gotten 89:16  
88:1  
hold 30:19 85:4,8  
92:8  
holding 56:24  
homes 34:7  
honest 9:4  
happening 11:8  
happens 91:1,2  
happiness 51:16  
happy 81:7  
gentlemen 13:19  
26:1 42:4  
implemented 33:18  
36:24 40:22 41:8  
81:18  
genuine 31:21  
genuineness 32:4  
George 54:21  
getting 13:18 28:8  
33:23 43:7 59:1  
62:3,5  
girls 44:5  
give 8:5 13:1 25:3  
32:23 33:14 35:4  
50:22 57:21 58:15 Grand 1:10  
63:1 69:25 81:6  
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57:22 64:21 87:5  
gloom 14:2  
go 5:4 7:12 13:5  
17:6 19:7 22:8  
26:20 27:16 33:1  
34:17 41:3,17  
governed 58:15  
government 14:18  
hard 19:11 66:3  
87:3,11,11,13  
honestly 65:15  
honor 68:24  
implies 36:8  
14:23 24:23 65:16 hard-working 14:13 hope 21:24 22:10  
implore 49:12  
importance 81:20  
important 59:24  
impossible 28:1  
52:13 54:16 88:16  
imposter 79:14,16  
improve 43:11  
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inaccurate 59:11  
inadvertently 72:9  
inaudible 12:4  
16:21 17:5 18:23  
22:22 25:22,25  
45:22,24 46:4  
47:11 51:6 54:13  
55:12 57:21 60:8  
65:8 72:10 80:16  
82:17 85:25 86:13  
86:17 87:2,7 89:4  
89:6,10,14,18,21  
91:5  
75:22  
harder 29:7 58:23  
92:2  
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governmental 13:21 Harper 13:17  
hopefully 5:22  
hours 83:6 91:10  
house 14:14 40:19  
67:19  
housed 14:13  
housekeeping 4:20  
huge 11:12  
governments 62:3  
governor 61:11  
77:16  
harvesters 21:1  
harvesting 34:5  
headed 29:19  
health 80:5 90:7  
hear 4:24 6:4 17:1  
22:16,17,20 23:2  
grandmothers  
51:13  
hundreds 24:19  
Grassroots 23:5  
grateful 91:3  
great 7:3 9:15 64:12  
66:9 72:24  
40:8 42:5,5 45:21 husband 87:20  
46:2 57:17 66:9  
66:10,14,14 86:1  
89:1 90:25  
hypocrisy 50:11  
55:4 75:21  
hypothetical 21:1  
31:24 32:16  
greater 10:3  
greatest 46:9  
greed 51:14  
heard 13:25 53:23  
78:11 83:6 87:5  
hearing 1:8 4:3,6,11  
4:14,19 6:1,17  
19:4 30:17,22  
40:24 42:3 56:24  
66:9 78:24 88:20  
88:22 92:16 93:14  
93:16  
I
ID 26:23 27:2 29:6  
39:7 58:22 59:1  
61:15,17 70:18  
ideas 57:7  
identification 26:4  
26:21,24 29:4  
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identified 39:2  
identify 5:24 37:19  
81:8 90:19  
identifying 6:12  
identity 4:8 6:19 8:1  
10:2 16:25 17:3  
18:17 61:20 64:4  
69:4 70:3,5,7,15  
71:9,21 79:7,8,13  
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60:10 67:24 69:10 Gretchen's 60:8  
73:13 74:18 78:20 ground 79:7  
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goals 35:13  
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guess 58:13  
incited 26:15  
include 77:5  
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goes 38:14 39:17  
going 6:16,17,20  
8:13,15 10:17  
11:4,6 12:16  
13:16 15:3,20  
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hearings 90:13  
heat 50:22  
held 26:17  
hell 50:4 62:1  
hello 10:11,11 84:7  
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included 25:11,12  
including 44:16  
incomplete 52:5  
incorrectly 69:12,13  
increase 27:2 49:6  
increasing 64:12  
indicated 5:20  
36:15 42:21 72:8  
indicates 63:19  
indicating 6:20 20:9  
22:19 40:25 52:6  
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guide 76:12  
guidelines 76:7,11  
76:16  
guilty 36:22  
guys 30:12 44:5  
16:20 17:6,10  
20:12 24:8 30:11  
30:22 31:12 33:14  
33:15,19 34:16  
45:15 47:6 50:9  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
69:24 71:13,14,15  
71:15,18 73:5,13  
81:11 83:15 85:4  
85:8 87:15 88:10  
90:14 91:11,19  
92:7,10,10,21,25  
people's 48:3,5,22  
60:3  
3:15 24:9,9,10,11  
24:14 91:5,8,13  
91:15,16,18  
31:25  
possible 13:7 23:1  
41:25 78:14  
print 28:3 80:10  
printed 80:1  
printing 80:13,17  
80:19  
prior 26:7 42:21  
Priorities 29:18  
40:12,16,17 41:13 proposed 4:6 5:19  
proper 39:25 78:4  
84:12,17  
properly 93:6  
proposal 43:15  
propose 23:13 25:17  
29:25  
place 4:5 9:24 14:23 possibly 15:24  
40:6,7 88:15  
placed 53:23  
Plaintiff 40:18  
plan 37:13  
53:21  
potential 10:6,22  
48:17 49:1,6  
87:23 88:13  
42:3  
9:7 15:15 20:18  
21:21 23:7 31:17  
31:19 35:6,7,13  
35:14,19,22 36:8  
36:9,23 37:2 43:9  
43:15 48:13 49:11  
51:23 52:2,4  
60:21 61:14 70:22  
77:10,15 79:18  
93:10  
percent 64:3 79:25  
perfect 12:8,13 15:8 please 4:20,22,25  
27:16 59:7  
plant 88:10  
potentially 43:14  
power 14:17 51:14  
54:20 85:5,8  
prison 82:15  
privileged 48:25  
probably 18:9,10  
30:14 53:16,18  
78:11  
problem 8:5 43:7  
59:18 68:1  
problems 16:11  
34:13 51:19 52:8  
64:21  
procedure 21:14  
procedures 4:12  
10:5 77:13  
proceed 30:23 47:14 protect 8:18 19:12  
68:17 74:2  
5:7,19,23 6:22,24  
7:8 14:12 15:10  
17:11 19:23 20:10 practices 75:5,23  
perform 12:24  
performed 36:2  
performing 35:23  
period 45:16  
person 6:25 8:3 9:8  
10:9 12:2,8 13:9  
15:8 16:23 20:12  
22:13 24:7 25:19  
27:12 28:6,25  
31:1 32:19 34:3  
34:10,19 37:6  
38:3,6,23,24  
39:20 42:6 46:20  
47:4 48:4 51:3  
58:9,11 59:23  
practically 28:3  
22:24 23:3 35:9  
40:1 47:14 49:22  
51:16 52:17,22  
53:9 56:1,20,23  
56:24 57:20,25  
64:15 66:21,21  
68:19 78:24 84:8  
86:19,22 87:1,9  
89:8  
pleasure 44:11  
plenty 49:3  
point 24:24 33:11  
63:11 73:21 88:21 presentation 5:7,15  
points 10:22 14:25  
79:18 80:9  
pray 92:20  
preachers 86:13  
precinct 7:25 8:2  
76:24  
precious 27:1  
preface 65:10  
prefer 92:13  
prepared 62:13  
91:25  
proposes 49:6  
proposing 54:3  
67:24  
proposition 59:14  
24:3,3 29:21,22  
37:20,25 80:5  
prerogative 60:18  
presence 86:13  
proceeding 52:7  
process 8:4,15,22,23 protecting 29:8  
11:1,11,13,17,19  
12:20,21 13:5  
14:14 20:6 21:15  
58:24  
protocol 22:9  
protocols 88:7  
60:5,6,7 62:8  
63:17 68:8 69:1,2 polarize 45:11  
66:8 75:4  
presented 5:1,4,13  
5:16 22:6 42:1  
79:18  
President 39:1  
presidential 26:7  
presume 26:8 33:7  
33:15,25 34:2,2  
36:21 41:20 75:25  
78:6  
presumed 20:20  
22:5 35:23 36:6  
38:16,20 75:10  
presumption 31:20  
32:7,9 38:12,13  
77:5  
72:4,25 73:16,21  
73:23 74:3,6 82:2  
85:23 86:3,8,15  
86:18 88:19 89:2  
90:24 92:22  
personal 62:3  
personally 18:6  
55:18  
pole 21:7,15 22:6  
39:14 44:12 46:5  
46:6,13  
poles 14:23 39:5  
47:21  
31:18 35:18 40:14 prove 28:1 88:16  
41:11,15 46:12,14 proves 79:7  
48:23,24 51:19  
52:17 59:9,21  
60:1,15,19 61:10  
61:12 63:21 66:17  
66:18,19 67:1,2  
67:11 69:20,22  
75:24 77:2,4,20  
78:7 80:19 82:5  
82:23 88:11 90:8  
90:21  
processes 11:14  
49:7  
processing 35:18  
88:8  
procurement 81:25 public 1:8 4:6 5:2,2  
produce 77:8  
professional 51:23  
prohibits 63:12  
promote 80:6  
promoting 25:16  
promulgated 76:25  
pronouncing 24:10  
28:10  
provide 5:14 6:11  
9:25 10:3 39:12  
47:7 52:12 54:2,5  
57:4,20,20 60:22  
61:19 63:5 66:5  
67:5 71:2 76:2,15  
85:16 89:13  
provided 76:14  
77:23 78:4  
provides 38:14,17  
38:20 39:11 80:7  
providing 36:13  
54:5  
policies 88:8  
political 9:5 11:18  
12:20,21,25 27:6  
29:23 54:19  
politically 86:14  
politicized 59:20  
politics 90:6  
pertaining 87:21  
petitions 38:9  
phase 26:25  
Phil 23:8  
Philip 2:11 20:12,13 Polly 2:13 3:1 27:12  
phone 4:23 30:19  
32:22 55:17  
phonetic 28:7 34:25 Pomish 2:19 43:19  
37:18,19 47:24,25  
68:23 74:20 77:22  
83:17  
physical 50:10  
physically 80:17  
pick 55:17  
27:14,15,18,22  
63:23,24,24 64:16 pretend 59:13  
pretty 10:21 19:1  
28:12 33:10  
prevail 52:18  
previous 81:19  
previously 44:18  
82:4  
primarily 45:2  
primary 44:12  
75:17  
provisions 4:12  
43:19,20,23 44:2  
44:4  
pornography 21:5  
portal 79:20  
portrayed 68:5  
posed 80:15  
position 19:15  
possessing 21:7  
possibility 13:3  
13:6 18:8,9 20:1  
40:24 47:7 54:15  
57:3,17,19 58:6,7  
65:25 70:10 74:1  
75:6 79:3 89:1,13  
89:17,24 90:7  
piece 33:7  
PIME 35:3  
Piotrowski 2:12  
91:21 92:6 93:1  
publicized 53:17  
principal 12:17  
Page 10  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
published 4:14,16  
79:6  
punishable 36:19  
Pure 35:4 42:13  
purpose 31:17 47:7 rationale 70:21  
purposely 84:15 re-group 90:24  
pursuant 4:11 82:14 read 15:15 41:1  
raising 27:24 90:7  
rambling 70:10  
rampant 28:1  
ran 25:2  
9:14,18,20 10:10  
10:11,13,16,19,20  
32:20,24 33:3,4  
61:22,23 67:13,14  
Reese 2:15  
reporter 6:22 9:10  
10:18 17:12 20:10 responsibility 15:24  
20:14 22:19,25  
23:3 31:6 74:16  
reporter's 72:22  
respects 41:23  
36:12 70:7  
responsible 76:18  
78:1  
refer 71:1 72:1  
reporting 1:21 79:8 rest 37:17  
reference 63:1 68:3 reports 17:25 51:18 restoring 21:24  
pursuit 51:16  
purview 25:3 65:6  
put 8:22 10:23  
16:17 19:15 25:15 reads 76:21  
33:9 44:9,25 61:7 ready 17:18 27:17  
49:23 50:12 67:19 referenced 63:2  
79:13  
result 41:12 67:25  
79:19  
results 37:14 67:22  
return 68:15  
returns 21:20  
reviewed 31:20  
70:25 71:7 87:24  
reading 67:22  
referencing 59:2  
referential 92:1  
reflect 47:13  
represent 5:25  
11:22 38:2 51:12  
representation  
92:18  
reform 23:24 39:1  
58:12 60:10 74:18 regaining 22:10  
62:15 64:5,11  
representatives  
68:20 70:14 71:24 real 33:17 69:8  
regard 23:16 27:5  
regarding 23:9  
32:12 37:23 70:2  
71:12 77:5 93:9  
Register 4:15  
registered 63:8  
registration 1:22  
6:6 59:5 61:9 82:1 Republican 44:15  
regulations 42:17  
regulatory 70:22  
76:9 79:17 80:6  
88:23  
reimplement 26:18  
reiterate 90:2,4  
reject 20:20  
rejected 41:16  
73:13  
related 35:17 51:15  
75:7  
14:14 52:19 54:14 revises 41:11  
84:12 92:20  
puts 27:5 30:2  
reality 64:14  
realize 90:9  
69:7  
ridiculous 19:18  
50:14 59:14 71:19  
right 6:23 7:5,11 8:5  
9:1,13 10:15  
12:14 14:7 15:7  
16:24 17:9,10,22  
17:22 24:6,23  
represented 67:20  
representing 65:16  
republic 8:18 12:18  
29:16,17 30:8  
48:24  
putting 26:21 63:20 really 11:10 28:16  
71:3  
33:13 38:10 42:1  
46:12 54:19 57:9  
69:8 70:8 73:20  
82:18 90:11,15,20  
90:24 92:5  
reason 8:22 32:17  
36:19 43:9 48:14  
59:23 73:25  
Q
QR 14:25  
qualified 59:10  
qualities 31:22 76:3  
quantum-dot 15:4  
quarter 79:11  
quarters 79:15  
question 39:14 57:6  
65:3,7 70:2,9  
71:20 75:20 80:14  
92:3  
questionable 41:22  
76:4  
questions 43:6  
53:11 61:6 69:8  
71:2  
Republicans 13:2  
request 34:9 54:9  
59:12 60:3 61:14  
70:23 78:2 81:14  
requested 41:19  
requests 28:16  
68:19 73:1,2  
require 7:21 25:5  
36:2 38:18 76:22  
80:10  
required 4:21 8:13  
51:8 71:12  
requirement 28:21  
70:3,8  
requirements 29:4  
36:8 58:20 62:18  
25:10 27:15 33:16  
33:18 44:1,16,19  
45:4,12,12,13  
46:15 50:24 52:10  
53:10,10 55:2  
reasons 19:1,3  
24:16 72:25 73:1  
rebuild 52:20  
56:3 64:2,19  
65:13 67:13 73:25  
80:25 81:7 82:25  
89:23 91:23,24  
rights 14:6 41:10  
50:9 92:13 93:5  
rigorous 75:24  
ripe 62:10  
RIS 15:15 16:1  
53:20,25 54:1  
71:25 80:14 83:23  
recall 73:22  
receipts 82:14  
receive 5:18 79:23  
received 78:23  
recess 30:11,13  
reckless 64:14  
reconsider 25:17  
reconvene 30:13  
record 5:2 18:8,9  
30:16 50:5,15  
Relaxing 27:2  
released 41:9  
relevant 75:9  
relied 39:7  
remain 36:14 93:13  
remaining 21:12  
23:15 53:4  
quietly 77:12  
quite 29:13  
quo 90:11  
requires 28:22 65:1 risk 64:12  
quote 29:3,9 58:18  
58:19,25 59:2  
QVF 36:6 80:1  
55:19,22 56:10,12  
56:14,17 58:4  
66:6,24 72:3,7,15 Remelius 2:8,18 3:2 rescind 68:24  
80:17  
road 27:15 34:17  
remedy 10:1  
requiring 7:16 71:8  
63:25  
roadmap 38:14  
Rob 2:8,18 3:2  
17:13,13,19 18:14  
43:4,5 64:17,18  
Roberts 2:8,21 3:13  
15:8,8,11,11,14  
53:6,10,11 54:14  
55:7,10 56:2 83:5  
83:5,20,22 84:10  
84:21,25 85:4,8  
85:11,15,18,22,25  
86:5,11,17,20,23  
87:2,7,10,14 89:5  
72:21 83:1,4  
17:13,19,22 18:14 Rescue 38:9  
43:4,5 64:17,18  
remind 14:1 26:6  
REMLINGER 1:17 reset 74:13  
R
84:20 86:7 93:13  
RECORDED 1:20  
Recorder 1:21  
research 83:9  
researching 83:9  
R-e-e-s 9:12 10:20  
33:4  
R-e-m-e-l-i-u-s  
17:14  
R-o-b-e-r-t-s 15:12  
R-o-n-a-l-d 24:14  
91:18  
records 8:9,14 11:5 remove 59:25 80:8  
24:3 70:6,17  
71:23  
redeeming 20:24  
23:18 31:22 75:13 report 6:2 36:18,25 resources 18:3  
residents 81:24  
resign 54:10  
resolved 11:25  
41:24  
removed 13:3 16:8  
renamed 20:18  
Repeat 55:5  
R-y-a-n 15:11  
radar 83:15  
raise 32:22  
76:3  
reelection 59:17  
Rees 2:6,6 9:9,11,12 reportedly 37:16  
reported 37:5 63:21  
79:16  
71:17  
respect 30:18 44:4  
51:22  
Page 11  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
89:9,14,18,22  
robust 67:11  
rod 64:1  
36:13,23 37:2  
42:14,19,22 44:8  
47:8 51:23 52:2,4 scribble 23:17,19,22 selected 19:16  
scramble 16:3  
screen 30:21  
seeking 10:4 90:6  
seen 19:8 82:16  
showing 26:21  
shows 21:20 29:20  
54:17  
roll 90:8  
rolling 42:22  
Roman 24:8  
52:11,15 54:3  
63:20 65:25 68:13 scribbled 44:25  
55:13  
senate 31:9 40:19  
60:12 61:17 76:20  
sic 12:3 24:8 34:20  
46:22 48:9 61:23  
65:9 77:15  
sign 19:22 26:3,22  
28:23 53:9 56:4,9  
57:24 59:17 61:1  
61:3,6 65:2 68:11  
sign- 63:6  
68:24 70:11 71:5  
71:19 73:24 74:24  
75:1 76:25 77:11  
77:12,16,18,19  
78:2 79:18 80:5  
84:13,18 86:1  
scribbles 21:3 23:20 Senator 31:8 60:12  
34:12 37:25  
search 18:4  
Ron 93:7  
81:6  
send 66:18  
Ronald 2:12 3:15  
24:9,11,14 91:5,8  
91:13,15,15,18  
room 4:5 14:1,3  
44:13 80:2 91:11  
row 46:2 66:10  
RS 71:25  
rubbish 45:15  
rug 53:18  
rule 1:6 2:4,10,23  
3:4,7,9,11 5:3,6  
5:10,11,13,15 6:9  
6:17 7:14,20 9:5,6 running 8:4,16 10:7  
9:23,24 10:2  
11:16 13:7 16:25  
17:2,3,4,17 18:16 Ruth 31:8 60:12  
18:16 20:2,4,4,18 Ryan 2:8,21 3:13  
20:19,19 21:2,22  
21:22 23:7 28:2,5  
29:25 30:2,7,24  
31:17,19 33:5  
34:15,16 35:6,6  
37:9 38:5,12  
39:17 44:10 53:5  
55:25 56:11 57:4  
57:18 58:3,6,7,18  
59:2,3,7,8,19,20  
60:14,14,15,19,20  
61:14 62:24 63:4  
66:5 69:2 70:4,14  
70:15,20,22,23  
71:12,20 72:14,22  
73:3,4,13,25 74:2  
74:12,14 78:10  
79:4 82:20 91:7  
93:2  
season 52:3  
sending 28:20 34:9  
34:11  
senior 22:4 34:7  
sense 14:4 21:8  
44:25 69:17  
sent 16:9 36:3 40:19 signature 4:8 20:4  
46:22 62:14 77:14  
80:20  
separate 90:23  
separated 37:21  
September 4:16  
75:2  
serve 10:3 21:22  
32:11 71:13  
serves 10:5  
second 5:14 11:25  
13:15 20:3 35:5  
40:3 46:2 62:25  
63:1 66:10 68:12  
81:9  
92:1,11 93:10  
sign-in 5:9,12,17,22  
sign-up 6:19  
ruling 11:13,23  
21:20 24:2 41:6  
run 7:25 8:1,21 9:2  
10:23,25 11:20  
13:3 18:5,7 19:10 Secretaries 65:5  
19:19 69:11,19  
71:15  
secondly 12:24  
seconds 32:22 81:20  
20:21,22,25 21:6  
21:6,15,21 22:5,6  
23:11,14,16 25:5  
25:13 26:2 27:10  
27:18,20,23 28:3  
28:4,23 29:5,7,10  
30:5 31:21,22,23  
32:1,4,5,18 33:5,7  
34:5,11 35:7,15  
35:17,20,24,24  
36:2,5,6 37:23  
38:3,12,13,15,16  
38:18,22 39:6,8  
39:10,12 40:14  
41:11,14,19,21,21  
41:23 46:14 48:5  
49:24 50:12 58:21  
58:23 59:1,4,8,23  
60:24 61:7,15,25  
62:18 63:6,8,9,13  
63:16,17 73:17  
74:12,24 75:17,19  
75:23 76:12,22  
77:1,4,6 79:21,24  
80:1 88:12  
Secretary 14:24  
15:6 18:1 21:16  
23:6,12 24:4 25:1  
25:2 26:13 28:2  
29:25 31:10,11  
36:12,22 37:1,12  
39:2,6 41:5,11  
11:6 13:6 59:17  
rushed 20:25 21:3  
service 80:20  
session 75:3  
15:8,8,11,11,14  
53:10,11 54:14  
55:7,10 56:2 83:5  
83:5,20,22 84:10  
84:21,25 85:4,8  
85:11,15,18,22,25  
86:5,11,17,20,23  
87:2,7,10,14 89:5  
89:9,14,18,22  
42:19 43:13 45:6  
49:5,8 51:24 54:7 set 1:6 2:4,10,23 3:4  
60:13,24 61:7,20  
62:5 63:7,12 64:1  
66:12 68:16,18  
69:13 70:5,6,12  
70:16 71:22 74:1  
76:25 77:7 81:10  
82:11 90:3,25  
Secretary's 77:15  
section 5:3 35:8  
62:17 63:2 82:14  
sections 5:7 36:11  
secure 22:3 29:7  
37:12,13,13 47:20 severe 38:19  
49:9,14 58:23  
62:9 64:10,20  
73:14 75:5,22  
securing 29:11,12  
security 26:3 37:21  
3:7,9,11 5:3,10,11  
5:13 6:17 17:2,17  
18:16 20:2,4  
30:24 33:12 53:5  
55:25 56:11 57:4  
58:3,6,7 68:14  
72:22 74:12,14  
78:10 79:4 91:7  
Set-061 20:4  
S
s-k-i 91:19  
s-o-n 40:3  
safe 64:5  
safeguard 23:15  
safeguards 67:5  
safer 43:12  
safety 80:5  
sake 72:22  
sets 4:25 5:6 6:9  
57:18  
seven 77:23  
shaking 14:17 20:25 signature.' 34:3  
share 92:25 93:10  
sheet 5:9,17 6:20  
19:23 58:10  
signatures 20:19,22  
22:9 23:7 25:14  
25:18 26:9,22  
28:21 30:6 31:20  
34:6 37:24 43:8  
44:17,19,23 45:5  
48:2,3,5 50:13  
52:14 59:6,7,10  
59:25 60:1 62:8,9  
62:21 75:9,10,11  
75:12 76:1,3,4,6  
76:18 77:23,24  
78:2 79:25 87:22  
sat 91:10  
rule-making 28:16  
ruled 26:10,19  
rules 1:5 4:6,25 5:19  
7:16 10:6 11:1  
sheets 5:8,12,22  
saw 34:14 45:3  
saying 39:9 54:9  
83:11,24 84:3  
85:22  
says 38:15 41:9 88:1  
scams 79:14,16  
scanning 80:18  
scared 84:1  
scares 62:1  
43:10 51:25 59:24 shes 44:5  
61:16 75:4  
see 11:8,10 18:5,6  
19:13 21:5 48:20  
50:10 51:23 55:3  
58:14 60:7 63:3  
71:6 91:20,20,21  
93:1  
shining 77:19  
shocking 51:18  
shoot 30:6  
short 9:23 30:13  
shot 23:11  
show 15:3 26:3,22  
27:8 29:20 46:9  
73:7 88:21  
13:4 15:15,18  
16:4 20:23 21:11  
21:25 28:17,18  
31:17 33:10,18,20  
33:24,24 35:7,14  
35:19,22 36:8,9  
seek 52:20  
Page 12  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
87:23 88:2,5  
signed 5:8,9,20 12:5  
18:20,21 53:8  
56:5 61:11 69:2  
69:24 72:9 74:7  
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significant 20:21  
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signing 5:12,16  
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signs 73:2  
silence 90:10 93:4  
silent 4:23  
silly 19:19 92:11  
similarities 41:24  
simple 67:21 88:2  
simpler 62:7  
simply 13:13,14,23  
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sir 81:3 85:10,10,14  
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sister 24:6  
sit 6:2 29:15 54:15  
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sitting 46:1 63:25  
situation 19:8 59:12  
situations 34:4 60:2  
six 36:2  
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91:4  
sought 7:22  
sounds 15:4 42:1  
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90:16 91:19  
speaks 92:23  
specific 33:4 80:22  
specifically 82:21  
specified 36:17  
specify 36:4  
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63:7,9,12 64:1  
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stomping 14:7  
stop 47:6 52:6,17  
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65:23 66:11,12,13 stored 36:5 60:23  
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75:22,25 76:14,17 strict 27:9  
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63:6,7  
story 45:16  
strengthen 34:16  
source 23:25 39:3  
Southfield 59:16,17 spell 6:21 7:8 9:10  
sovereign 14:6,8  
speak 5:19,20,23  
9:21 13:13,13,18  
13:22 16:25 17:3  
18:16,19 20:8  
10:17 43:24 45:18  
49:21 50:1 55:6  
57:1 72:20  
spell- 25:23  
spelled 27:15  
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strike 68:15  
stringent 78:3  
strive 52:15  
strong 6:4 13:7  
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strongly 38:5 49:4  
stuff 15:16,20 16:14  
53:18,25 54:1  
62:10 71:1 81:5  
83:9 85:22  
22:18,24 23:1  
spelling 13:16 14:10 State's 18:1 21:17  
24:12,18 31:1,12  
34:22 35:9 43:6  
48:11,14 53:5,7  
55:5 56:19,20  
67:15,17,18 68:10  
69:2,24 72:6,11  
72:16 74:7,12  
15:10 17:11 19:17  
20:10 23:2 26:2  
31:6 39:25 50:11  
spoke 15:18 19:1  
24:15 53:12 56:9  
91:9 92:22  
spoken 73:23  
spotting 21:9  
ST 1:6  
stack 41:2 51:7  
staff 31:8  
stake 27:4  
stand 13:20 14:5  
16:20 30:7 52:22  
59:19 86:12  
42:19 62:5 63:10  
70:7 81:10  
stated 19:2 33:6  
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statement 2:3,5,6,6  
2:7,7,8,8,9,11,12  
2:12,13,13,14,14  
2:15,15,16,16,17  
2:17,18,18,19,19  
2:20,20,21,21,22  
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stupid 58:25  
subject 4:17 24:12  
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86:4,16,19,19,22  
87:1,1,6,9 88:20  
89:8,12,16,19,20  
89:22,23 90:14  
speaker 2:9 3:8,13  
6:10 13:16 17:5  
18:18,21,24 19:24  
22:15,16,17,20,20 standard 29:12  
22:21,21,22 24:6  
30:23 35:9,11  
2:24,24,25 3:1,1,2 submission 8:14  
3:2,3,3,5,6,8,8,10  
3:12,13,13,14,14  
3:15,16 21:4 41:9  
70:23 76:9 79:17  
89:5,9  
states 31:19 32:3  
35:6,14 36:15  
60:22,25 63:4  
12:23 80:12 82:1  
submit 6:5,6,13  
38:15 59:3,19  
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78:16,21,24 79:20  
82:7  
submitted 6:8 8:1  
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standards 4:8 27:19  
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74:24 75:1 78:3  
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42:21 45:22,24  
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64:9 76:9,10 77:3  
77:18 81:21 82:10 subsection 77:1,3  
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skew 92:18  
skill 33:12  
standing 40:16  
81:21  
slew 11:6  
50:19,24 51:2,5,6 start 6:17 13:19  
statewide 26:15  
stationed 80:23  
statue 42:24  
status 90:11  
statute 63:18 64:25 suggest 14:14 62:22  
65:4 suggested 37:3  
sudden 11:15  
sued 33:23 41:13  
sufficient 71:7,25  
77:8  
Slightest 41:24  
small 14:3 16:7  
smart 86:13  
social 14:25 51:20  
61:16  
51:7,8 52:10 53:1  
54:13 55:2 56:21  
57:2,11,21,24  
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65:8 66:14,21  
20:12 29:3 57:11  
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started 25:6 29:2  
58:18 69:21  
state 1:1 4:13,21  
sold 40:10  
solely 12:16  
72:18 73:18,20  
80:25 81:2,4  
7:15,18 8:21 11:9 statutes 25:5 36:1,4 suggestions 90:3  
11:9 14:24 15:6  
36:21,25 42:17,24 supervisors 21:9  
solutions 68:3  
somebody 18:5,10  
55:16 69:17 71:3  
83:2 92:19  
somebody's 80:3  
Soros 54:21  
sorry 20:14 31:13  
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82:22 85:3,7,13  
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speaker's 32:21  
speakers 5:21 6:9  
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speaking 14:7 31:16  
35:3 48:12 53:9  
56:16,16 57:7,9  
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24:4,18 25:1,3,10 statutory 26:12 32:2  
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29:21,25 31:10,11  
36:12,22 37:1,12  
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support 19:2,5  
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60:6 70:4 77:17  
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supporting 84:2  
supposed 19:12  
43:24 54:2,5,6  
76:2 84:16  
32:8,10 35:22  
36:8,10 38:11  
39:16 61:5,8  
stay 30:14  
stem 34:6  
step 54:9 83:23  
stole 54:11 92:19  
stolen 55:1 62:6  
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supreme 21:4  
Page 13  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
sure 4:23 5:19 6:22  
16:3 19:24 28:1  
33:19,20 43:11  
44:16,19 45:5  
48:2 52:1 73:14  
80:24 83:6 92:2  
surrounding 8:11  
survive 24:21 43:16  
switch 74:14 78:8  
system 6:3 13:24  
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testify 74:9  
testifying 7:5 10:14  
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testimony 17:17  
30:25 57:18,19  
58:9  
thank 4:24 6:4 9:7  
9:18,19,20 10:8,9 third 13:15  
10:20 12:1,7 13:8 Thomas 22:5  
13:12,22 15:7,9  
15:13 18:13,18  
19:25 20:16 22:11 thousands 18:4 21:2 transcript 47:12  
24:5,11 25:18  
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35:16 37:14 42:15 town 47:24  
totally 7:19 8:2  
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61:12 68:23  
types 19:7 92:1  
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45:5,14,15 62:4,9 township 7:18 10:24  
u-m-i-t-r-e-s-c-u  
12:12 37:11  
Uh-huh 56:2  
64:2,20 72:9,13  
72:20 83:2 84:11  
thinks 53:15  
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track 13:18  
training 17:24  
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un- 14:12  
un-vetted 14:12  
unacceptable 29:24  
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unaware 7:19 15:19  
unbeknownst 80:3  
unconstitutional  
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undefined 20:23  
understand 45:7  
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understanding  
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undeserved 21:23  
undue 12:22  
unfortunately 21:18  
uniform 52:12  
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United 64:9 81:21  
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Unknown 2:9 3:8,13  
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unlawful 36:9,23  
62:24 83:12  
thought 72:11  
thoughts 62:16  
transcribed 6:1  
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70:12 83:8  
system's 14:21  
systems 88:7  
21:14 24:19 29:14 transmittal 62:21  
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three 4:14,25 9:22  
14:19 15:15 20:23 transported 14:13  
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thrown 43:8  
Tiberius 15:1  
ticked 16:12 55:1  
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transparency 52:16  
75:7  
trash 73:4  
T
treason 16:19  
Treasury 82:13  
treat 14:11 56:21  
treated 31:23  
tried 41:4  
TABLE 2:1  
take 11:25 19:20  
27:23 30:10,11,13  
30:15 40:7 48:25  
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54:23 57:1 66:17  
67:5 68:12 72:3  
80:2 88:15 92:10  
92:17,18,24 93:4  
93:5  
taken 36:18,21 72:2  
78:2  
takers 14:6  
takes 66:25  
talk 15:17  
talked 7:17 8:12  
69:7  
talking 15:16 48:21  
66:22  
tamper 16:18 64:10  
tampering 25:7  
64:7  
tandem 59:7,19  
targeted 11:18  
tattoo 15:4  
trouble 68:21  
55:24 56:15,15,15 time 10:21 13:22,25 truckloads 67:9  
56:16,20,22,23  
57:23 60:11 61:21  
62:10,11 64:16,18  
65:7 67:12,17  
68:7,24 69:1,21  
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74:5,20,22 78:8  
78:19 80:24 81:1  
81:19 85:1 86:25  
87:4 88:17,18  
89:25 91:3 92:3  
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thanks 18:14 19:21 Title 82:12,14  
20:17 43:5 63:25  
theft 64:4 79:8,13  
theorists 54:16  
theory 88:6  
13:25 17:3 19:20  
19:25 20:11 24:25 truly 49:2  
29:2 30:12,18  
31:11 33:18 34:18 trumpet 77:17  
37:15 39:18 41:18 Trust 75:4,6  
48:7,18 50:22  
54:11 55:24 56:1  
59:15 62:4 65:4  
69:23 74:13 86:10  
timer 30:11,19  
78:10  
true 52:1  
trump 16:17 73:11  
truth 52:18,20  
try 24:23 33:19  
34:16 52:8 62:14  
78:13  
trying 21:21 24:21  
24:21 45:6,11  
53:18 64:19 70:12  
90:11  
turn 6:14 14:12  
17:2,18 20:2  
22:15 27:7 29:11  
79:2 89:19  
turning 15:25  
twiddling 54:25  
two 6:10 7:11 17:16  
17:17 20:11 30:20  
35:6 40:17 51:7  
58:9 59:7,9 60:1  
62:7 70:11 73:8,9  
73:10,11 74:9  
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two-cents 44:9  
two-way 85:11  
type 24:2 43:14  
times 33:6  
titled 79:6  
today 4:19,24 5:1,18  
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24:22 25:8 39:22  
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thing 9:9,22,22  
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61:9 62:25 66:10  
66:15 67:3,4 74:5  
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techniques 88:3  
technology 33:2  
tell 14:12 22:2 56:24  
69:11 70:19 90:19  
telling 92:7  
unnecessary 7:20  
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unpolitical 13:6  
updated 76:7  
upheld 82:17  
upset 15:20 53:12  
told 22:8 69:17  
top 21:25  
topic 18:22 75:3,5  
total 7:6 79:13  
terrible 76:8  
terrorists 16:18  
think 10:21 11:5  
Page 14  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
91:21 92:7  
urge 28:4  
vetting 14:14 15:24 voting 16:16 27:11  
53:24 38:2 41:10 43:12  
64:22 67:21 68:1  
85:3,18  
worked 25:6 31:10  
worker 22:6 44:13  
USA 29:18 40:12,16 victory 41:10  
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view 76:5  
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weaken 16:15 28:18 workers 21:7,15  
violate 20:23 42:20  
violated 36:20 42:18  
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violation 13:3,4  
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violations 36:10,16  
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virtual 75:3  
virtually 52:13  
voice 6:4 40:25  
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29:11,15 30:1  
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weakens 59:8  
wealthy 8:19  
website 81:11,13  
Wednesday 75:2  
week 50:25,25  
weeks 67:24  
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working 21:1 44:11  
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77:7 83:16 90:7  
workings 88:6  
works 59:7  
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walk 92:13  
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wants 16:24 17:3  
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warehouse 21:1  
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wasn't 53:13,22,22  
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welfare 80:5  
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wouldn't 4:22  
write 25:12,12 34:3  
84:5  
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37:10  
valid 20:20 28:23,23  
30:6 31:21,23  
32:1,7 34:5 37:24  
38:16,20 39:13  
41:21 75:10,12,23  
76:1 77:25  
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validation 21:14  
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validity 22:5 38:12  
38:13 75:16 77:5  
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vehement 87:18  
vehemently 44:10  
vehicle 63:10  
voices 83:6  
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weren't 44:20 53:25 writing 6:5 93:11  
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Wheat 2:15,24 31:2  
31:3,7,7,14,16  
60:5,11,12  
volumes 92:23  
vote 14:22,22 25:8  
25:11 28:24 29:8  
37:21 38:3 46:11  
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58:24 64:21 67:7  
68:6 73:15 91:23  
91:24 92:16,17,18  
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whistleblower 22:7  
Whitmer 16:19 27:6  
wholesale 64:14  
wildly 59:11  
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45:17,18,20,23,25  
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35:12 40:9 46:3  
50:25 53:6,10  
55:7 56:2 57:2  
71:6 82:24,25  
voted 11:21  
voter 1:5 4:9,9,10  
20:5,6 24:2 25:10  
27:25 31:25 32:17  
35:14,15 37:22  
39:7 41:25 43:14  
46:12 52:4 58:8  
59:11 60:22,23  
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62:19 63:4,5,13  
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78:9 79:3,20  
80:10,10,22 81:12  
82:1,6 92:13 93:5  
voter's 23:19 31:21  
35:24 36:6 41:21  
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year 13:1 14:3 16:6  
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51:18 79:10  
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verify 25:18 36:6  
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years 8:2 19:7 48:2  
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you-all 54:18,19,24  
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we'll 5:4 16:21  
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74:13,13  
wishes 72:4  
wishing 31:1  
we're 11:5 17:6  
30:10,17,21 33:2  
42:3 45:8,15 47:6  
57:7,7,9 58:2 59:6  
59:9,18 60:13  
65:16,17 71:3  
81:11,16,17 84:23  
85:1,6 92:1  
withdraw 73:25  
withdrawn 21:23  
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young 23:20  
your-all 54:17 83:24  
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80:12  
voters 24:18 27:8,9  
28:22 62:19 80:16  
81:13  
Z
Zoom 90:13  
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78:2 88:12  
versus 59:1 87:23  
vetted 19:16  
wording 42:2  
work 6:3 11:3 47:21  
48:18,23 49:12,17  
52:7 54:20 65:18  
we've 6:23 29:4  
42:15 57:22 58:20  
votes 43:7,13 55:12  
59:22  
Page 15  
IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
79:19 80:22  
2021 1:11 4:2,4,16  
76:7 79:6,15  
2021-60 15:15  
2021-62 1:6  
20511 81:22  
23 2:12  
24 2:12  
25 2:13  
27 2:13  
270 68:16  
28 2:14  
61 2:25  
62 3:1  
63 3:1  
64 3:2  
65 3:2  
67 3:3  
68 3:3  
69 3:5  
0
0-0-0- 93:18  
060 2:4 3:4 7:14  
9:23,24 13:8  
16:25 17:3,8  
18:16 69:2 70:20  
061 2:10 3:9 16:22  
30:24 53:5 59:8  
74:12  
062 2:23 3:7,11  
28:19 58:7 72:14  
72:22,23 74:14  
78:10 79:4 87:22  
7
7 2:5  
70 3:6  
72 3:8  
73 3:8  
74 3:10 19:6  
759 62:17  
759a 62:19  
761.2 35:8,16  
765a(13) 36:11  
79 3:12  
29 2:14  
29th 75:3  
2nd 76:7  
1
1 1:11 4:2  
1-800-632-2720  
1:22  
1,000 16:7  
1.5 73:10  
3
3 63:4 77:1,3  
30 8:2 46:25  
3044 1:10  
31 2:15 82:14  
31(1) 36:11  
32 2:15  
3302 82:14  
34 2:16  
34,448 73:8  
37 2:16  
10 2:6  
8
81 3:13  
8151 1:22  
83 3:13  
100 79:24  
11:07 93:14,16  
116 4:12  
12 2:7  
87 3:14  
12,000 79:14  
13 2:7  
13,000 79:16  
14 83:9  
15 2:8 32:22 48:4  
15th 4:16  
9
9 2:6  
9:00 1:11 4:2,4  
90 3:14  
91 3:15  
92 3:16  
38 2:17  
39 2:17  
3rd 37:3  
4
4 2:3  
16 4:16  
16-years 14:15  
16-years-old 68:5  
168.1 6:18  
168.680 36:17  
168.931(2) 36:15  
17 2:8  
17,000 73:10  
18 2:9 82:12 90:8  
1954 4:12  
9214 1:20  
93,387 79:12  
42 2:18  
43 2:18,19  
45 2:19  
47 64:3  
48 2:20  
49 2:20  
5
5:00 6:7,14 78:23  
93:14  
1st 4:4  
509(gg) 63:18  
51 2:21  
52 81:21 82:10  
53 2:21  
56 2:22  
58 2:24  
2
2,000 38:9  
2.0 15:2  
20 2:11 48:4 76:12  
2018 16:17  
2019 79:9  
2020 13:2 26:6 37:3  
40:7,23 41:8  
42:21 44:11 48:17  
64:3 67:6 79:9,12  
5th 79:6  
6
60 2:24 90:5  
Page 16  
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