IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF  
ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR  
ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT  
APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
Prepared by  
depos@networkreporting.com  
Phone: 800.632.2720  
Fax: 800.968.8653  
www.networkreporting.com  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF ELECTIONS AND CAMPAIGN FINANCE  
In the Matter of:  
Bureau of Elections  
Administrative Rules for Online  
Absent Voter Ballot Application  
Rule Set 2021-62 ST  
/
PUBLIC HEARING  
3044 West Grand Boulevard, Detroit, Michigan  
Friday, October 1, 2021, 9:00 a.m.  
PANEL:  
ADAM FRACASSI  
Moderator  
DOUGLAS A. NOVAK, Esq.  
JONATHAN BRATER  
Bureau of Elections  
BRIAN REMLINGER  
Panel Member  
RECORDED BY:  
Anna Burns, CER 9214  
Certified Electronic Recorder  
Network Reporting Corporation  
Firm Registration Number 8151  
1-800-632-2720  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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TABLE OF CONTENTS  
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Opening Statement by Mr. Novak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4  
Rule Set 060  
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Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7  
Statement by Mr. Gabriel Rees . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9  
Statement by Mr. Matthew Rees . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10  
Statement by Mr. Valentin Dumitrescu . . . . . . . . . . 12  
Statement by Ms. Jaki Lovrince . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13  
Statement by Mr. Ryan Roberts . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15  
Statement by Mr. Rob Remelius . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17  
Statement by Unknown Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18  
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Rule Set 061  
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Statement by Mr. Philip O'Halloran . . . . . . . . . . . 20  
Statement by Ms. Evelyn Archer . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23  
Statement by Mr. Ronald Piotrowski . . . . . . . . . . . 24  
Statement by Ms. Jo DeMarco . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25  
Statement by Ms. Polly McNichol . . . . . . . . . . . . 27  
Statement by Ms. Debbie Louisignau . . . . . . . . . . . 28  
Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . 29  
Statement by Mr. Garrett Wheat . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31  
Statement by Mr. Matthew Reese . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32  
Statement by Mr. Louis Avallone . . . . . . . . . . . . 34  
Statement by Mr. Valentin Dumitrescu . . . . . . . . . . 37  
Statement by Mr. Adam DeAngeli . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38  
Statement by Mr. Ethan Hobson . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39  
Statement by Ms. Patrice Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 42  
Statement by Mr. Rob Remelius . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43  
Statement by Ms. Nancy Pomish . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43  
Statement by Mr. William Lethemon . . . . . . . . . . . 45  
Statement by Ms. Lisa Capatina . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48  
Statement by Ms. Kate DeMalleo . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49  
Statement by Ms. Jennifer Biddinger . . . . . . . . . . 51  
Statement by Mr. Ryan Roberts . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53  
Statement by Ms. Evelyn Archer . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56  
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Rule Set 062  
Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . 58  
Statement by Mr. Garrett Wheat . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60  
Statement by Mr. Brian Pendergraff . . . . . . . . . . . 61  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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Statement by Mr. Louis Avallone . . . . . . . . . . . . 62  
Statement by Ms. Polly McNichol . . . . . . . . . . . . 63  
Statement by Mr. Rob Remelius . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64  
Statement by Mr. William Lethemon . . . . . . . . . . . 65  
Statement by Ms. Jaki Lovrince . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67  
Statement by Ms. Patrice Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 68  
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Rule Set 060 (continued)  
Statement by Mr. William Lethemon . . . . . . . . . . . 69  
Statement by Ms. Kristina Karamo . . . . . . . . . . . . 70  
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Rule Set 062 (continued)  
Statement by Mr. Valentin Dumitrescu . . . . . . . . . . 72  
Statement by Unknown Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 73  
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Rule Set 061 (continued)  
Statement by Ms. Kim Cousino . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74  
Rule Set 062 (continued)  
Statement by Ms. Kim Cousino . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 79  
Statement by Unknown Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81  
Statement by Mr. Ryan Roberts . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83  
Statement by Ms. Lauren Pendergraff . . . . . . . . . . 87  
Statement by Ms. Lisa Capatina . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90  
Statement by Mr. Ronald Piotrowski . . . . . . . . . . . 91  
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Closing Statement by Mr. Novak . . . . . . . . . . . . . 92  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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Livonia, Michigan  
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Friday, October 1, 2021 - 9:00 a.m.  
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MR. NOVAK: Good morning. This hearing is being  
called to order at 9:00 a.m., on October 1st, 2021 at  
Cadillac Place, Room L150, Detroit, Michigan. This is a  
public hearing on proposed administrative rules entitled,  
"Disqualification from ballot based upon contents of  
affidavit of identity, Signature matching standards for  
absent voter ballot applications and absent voter ballot  
envelopes," and, "Online absent voter ballot application."  
This hearing is being conducted pursuant to the  
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provisions of 1954 PA 116, the Administrative Procedures  
Act, and on behalf of the Department of State, Bureau of  
Elections. The hearing was published in three newspapers of  
general circulation, as well as the Michigan Register, Issue  
Number 16, published on September 15th, 2021. My name is  
Doug Novak, and to my left is Adam Fracassi, the subject  
matter expert from the Bureau of Elections, and we will be  
facilitating the hearing today.  
And just one housekeeping measure, please, this is  
a state office building, and masks are required to be worn  
in this building. And if you wouldn't mind, please make  
sure your cell phone is on silent mode, and then everybody  
can hear the comments being made today. Thank you.  
Please note that there are three sets of rules  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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being presented for comment today. To facilitate and  
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organize record of public comment, we ask that public  
comment during each section be limited to the rule set that  
is currently being presented. So we'll go through one, the  
next one, then the next one. You will have a chance to  
address to address other rule sets during designated  
sections of this presentation. Please ensure that you have  
signed up on the comment sheets at the entrance there, and  
that you signed on the correct sign-in sheet.  
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We will call your names when each rule set is  
being brought up. You may comment on more than one rule set  
by signing in on multiple sign-in sheets. If you wish to  
comment on a rule set that had already been presented, we  
will provide a second opportunity to comment at the end of  
the presentation. You may comment on a rule that has  
already been presented by signing in on the appropriate  
sign-in sheet.  
We are here today to receive your comments on the  
proposed rules. If you wish to speak, please make sure that  
you have signed in and indicated your willingness to speak.  
We will call on the speakers in the order in which names are  
listed on the sign-in sheets, and hopefully, we won't  
butcher your name. When you come forward to speak, please  
identify yourself with your name, the organization you  
represent, if any, and both your mailing and email address  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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so that this information may be transcribed into the hearing  
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report. And there is a chair up here for you to sit, and  
apparently the PA system didn't work, so as long as you use  
a strong voice, everybody should hear you. Thank you. If  
you have additional comments to submit in writing, you may  
leave them at the registration desk or submit them to our  
department no later than 5:00 p.m. today. Comments can be  
submitted by emailing: elections@michgigan.gov.  
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To accommodate all speakers and all the rule sets,  
each speaker will be limited to two minutes. And again, if  
you wish to provide additional comments, you're more than  
welcome to leave your written comments with your identifying  
information on it, so we know who it's from, or submit them  
online by 5:00 p.m. With that, I will turn it over to Mr.  
Fracassi.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So I'm going to call on people. We  
are currently going to start the hearing on the rule set  
168.1, which is the Disqualification From Ballot Based on  
Contents of Affidavit of Identity. I do have the sign-up  
sheet here (indicating), so I'm going to call on you. As  
you come up, I would ask if you could spell your name for  
the court reporter, please, just so we can make sure that  
we've got it right. And if I mispronounce your name or  
anything, please feel free to let me know. So the first  
person I have is Kristina Karamo. Good morning.  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Hi. How are you doing?  
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MR. FRACASSI: I'm doing well. How are you?  
MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: I'm great.  
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MR. FRACASSI: So just to confirm, you are  
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testifying in opposition; right?  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: I'm in total opposition.  
MR. FRACASSI: Okay. Can I have you -- can I ask  
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you to spell your name, please?  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Yes, my name is Kristina  
Karamo, K-r-i-s-t-i-n-a, last name, K-a-r-a-m-o.  
MR. FRACASSI: All right. And you have two  
minutes. Go ahead.  
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MS. KRISTINA KARAMO: Yeah. So I am in complete  
opposition to Rule 060, because it disfranch- --  
disenfranchises the people of Michigan. There is no state  
or federal law requiring these rules. It's -- additionally,  
it's burdensome to our clerks. I have talked to multiple  
clerks; counties, township and city clerks across the State  
of Michigan. Many are totally unaware and they find the  
rule to be completely unnecessary.  
To require people to list every office that  
they've ever sought for nomination in every jurisdiction --  
number one, you don't clarify whether or not that's in or  
outside of -- only in Michigan, or maybe outside of  
Michigan. Many people, if you ever run for precinct  
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IN THE MATTER OF: BUREAU OF ELECTIONS ADMINISTRATIVE RULES FOR ONLINE ABSENT VOTER BALLOT APPLICATION, PUBLIC HEARING  
October 1, 2021  
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delegate, have submitted an affidavit identity to run for  
precinct delegate 30 years ago and may have totally  
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forgotten about it, and then the person is disqualified from  
running for office, and there is no appeal process. That is  
the problem. You give people no rig