Hearing  
01/23/2023  
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ยท7ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทMICHIGAN CIVIL RIGHTS COMMISSION  
ยท8ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท PUBLIC HEARING  
ยท9ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทMONDAY, JANUARY 23, 2023  
10ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท 3054 WEST GRAND BOULEVARD - ROOM L-150  
11ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท DETROIT, MICHIGAN  
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13ยท ยทCOMMISSIONERS:ยท ยท Portia Roberson, Chairperson  
14ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทLuke Londo  
15ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทDavid Worthams  
16ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทGloria Lara  
17ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทZenna Elhasan  
18ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทRichard Corriveau  
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20ยท ยทATTORNEYS:ยท ยท ยท ยท Lamont Satchel  
21ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทJohn Johnson  
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25ยท ยทCOURT REPORTER:ยท ยทTheresa L. Roberts, CSR-4870  
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ยท1ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Detroit, Michigan  
ยท2ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Monday, January 23, 2023  
ยท3ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท (At about 1:37 P.M.)  
ยท4ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท __ยท ยท ยท__ยท ยท ยท__  
ยท5ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSON:ยท Good afternoon, we are  
ยท6ยท ยทgoing to start with our public hearing.ยท This public  
ยท7ยท ยทhearing is on proposed administrative rules entitled  
ยท8ยท ยทDepartment of Civil Rights, Civil Rights Commission  
ยท9ยท ยทorganization, practice and procedure.ยท This hearing  
10ยท ยทis being conducted pursuant to the Michigan  
11ยท ยทAdministrative Procedures Act and on behalf of the  
12ยท ยทMichigan Department of Civil Rights and Michigan  
13ยท ยทCivil Rights Commission.  
14ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท This hearing is being called to order at  
15ยท ยท1:37 on Monday, January 23, 2023 at Cadillac Place,  
16ยท ยท3054 West Grand Boulevard, Room L-150, Detroit,  
17ยท ยทMichigan, and also via Zoom and teleconference.  
18ยท ยทThis hearing was published in four newspapers of  
19ยท ยทgeneral circulation as required by law, as well as  
20ยท ยทin the December 15th issue of the Michigan Register.  
21ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท My name is Portia Roberson, Chair of the  
22ยท ยทMichigan Civil Rights Commission, and I will be  
23ยท ยทfacilitating this hearing today.  
24ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Mr. Satchel, will you please take a row  
25ยท ยทcall of commissioners?  
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ยท1ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท Thank you, Madam Chair.  
ยท2ยท ยทCommissioner Roberson.  
ยท3ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSON:ยท Present.  
ยท4ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท Commissioner Lara.  
ยท5ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท COMMISSIONER LARA:ยท Present.  
ยท6ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท Commissioner Elhasan:  
ยท7ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท COMMISSIONER ELHASAN:ยท Present.  
ยท8ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท Commissioner Corriveau.  
ยท9ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท COMMISSIONER CORRIVEAU:ยท Present.  
10ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท Commissioner Worthams.  
11ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท COMMISSIONER WORTHAMS:ยท Here.  
12ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท And Commissioner Londo.  
13ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท COMMISSIONER LONDO:ยท Present.  
14ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSON:ยท Thank you, Attorney  
15ยท ยทSatchel.ยท Please note we are here today to receive  
16ยท ยทyour comments on the proposed rules.ยท Copies of the  
17ยท ยทproposed rules have been made available at this  
18ยท ยทhearing along with copies of the regulatory impact  
19ยท ยทstatement.ยท Both documents are also published on our  
20ยท ยทwebsite.ยท Interested parties may submit comments  
21ยท ยทtoday in person or remotely via Zoom.ยท Written  
22ยท ยทcomments or comments you would like to provide in  
23ยท ยทaddition to those today may also be submitted  
24ยท ยทelectronically or in person.ยท Any written comments  
25ยท ยทmay be sent to the following emails:  
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ยท1ยท ยทmdcr-commissionrules-public-comment@Michigan.gov or  
ยท2ยท ยทSatchel, S-A-T-C-H-E-L-L 1 at Michigan.gov.ยท Again,  
ยท3ยท ยทmdcr-commissionrules-public-comment@Michigan.gov or  
ยท4ยท ยทSatchel, S-A-T-C-H-E-L-L 1 at Michigan.gov.  
ยท5ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท If you would like to provide a written  
ยท6ยท ยทcopy to our office, they can be delivered to the  
ยท7ยท ยทMichigan Department of Civil Rights located at  
ยท8ยท ยทCadillac Place, 3054 West Grand Boulevard, 3rd  
ยท9ยท ยทFloor, Detroit, Michigan or at our Lansing office.  
10ยท ยทEmailed comments will be received up until 11:59  
11ยท ยทP.M. today, and hand-delivered comments will be  
12ยท ยทreceived up until 5 P.M. today.  
13ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท If you wish to speak, please make sure  
14ยท ยทyou have signed in and indicated your willingness to  
15ยท ยทspeak.ยท We will call on speakers in the order in  
16ยท ยทwhich names are listed on the sign-in sheets.ยท If  
17ยท ยทthere are individuals in the audience who would like  
18ยท ยทto provide public comment and did not get a chance  
19ยท ยทto sign the sign-in sheet, can you please raise your  
20ยท ยทhand so we can provide you with the sign-in sheet?  
21ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท For purposes of taking comments, we will  
22ยท ยทfirst receive comments from those who are in person  
23ยท ยทand then allow those who are participating remotely  
24ยท ยทto provide public comment.ยท We ask that anyone  
25ยท ยทgiving public comment please provide their name,  
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ยท1ยท ยทcity and county and any organization they are  
ยท2ยท ยทrepresenting.ยท And for those participating remotely,  
ยท3ยท ยทwe advise that you provide an email address so we  
ยท4ยท ยทmay follow up with you if necessary.  
ยท5ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Before we begin taking public comments,  
ยท6ยท ยทis there anything additional from my fellow  
ยท7ยท ยทcommissioners that you would like to share?  
ยท8ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท The summary proposed changes and  
ยท9ยท ยทsolicitation of public comment.ยท Pursuant to the  
10ยท ยทMichigan Administrative Procedures Act, Michigan  
11ยท ยทcomplied (sic) laws, Section 24.241, subsection 5,  
12ยท ยทMr. Lamont Satchel, general counsel for the Michigan  
13ยท ยทDepartment of Civil Rights, has been designated as  
14ยท ยทthe department representative on the proposed  
15ยท ยทchanges and will participate in any discussions  
16ยท ยทregarding the proposed rules.  
17ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Although the proposed rules have been  
18ยท ยทpreviously published for public review since at  
19ยท ยทleast November of last year, before I begin  
20ยท ยทsoliciting comments I would note that the proposed  
21ยท ยทrule changes seek to clarify several definitions and  
22ยท ยทpractices of the Michigan Civil Rights Commission.  
23ยท ยทThe changes are also intended to facilitate  
24ยท ยทflexibility and efficiency in the operation of the  
25ยท ยทcommission and the Michigan Department of Civil  
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ยท1ยท ยทRights by, for example, allowing electronic filings  
ยท2ยท ยทand notifications and remote or virtual proceedings.  
ยท3ยท ยทSignificantly, the proposed rules codify a practice  
ยท4ยท ยทadopted by the commission several years ago related  
ยท5ยท ยทto BFOQ exception process which changed unlimited  
ยท6ยท ยทduration of an exception that is granted to five  
ยท7ยท ยทyears to allow for the commission to timely  
ยท8ยท ยทreevaluate the basis for grant of the exception.  
ยท9ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Mr. Satchel, is there anything you would  
10ยท ยทlike to add before we begin taking comments?  
11ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท Yes, Madam Chair, thank  
12ยท ยทyou.ยท I would just briefly note that each of the  
13ยท ยทproposed changes are intended to implement best  
14ยท ยทpractices, and each of them have been prepared and  
15ยท ยทsubmitted for adoption after careful review of the  
16ยท ยทrules of several great lake states, civil rights  
17ยท ยทcommissions and departments, including New York,  
18ยท ยทPennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Minnesota, Illinois and  
19ยท ยทWisconsin.  
20ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Lastly, I would like to acknowledge  
21ยท ยทseveral former and current employees who worked on  
22ยท ยทthese rule changes, some as early as 2018.ยท These  
23ยท ยทinclude Attorneys Kim Woolridge, Marcelina Trevino,  
24ยท ยทSylvia Elliot, Dr. Jerome Reeve and Ed Latham.  
25ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท I would also like to thank and recognize  
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ยท1ยท ยทthe Michigan Office of Administrative Hearings and  
ยท2ยท ยทRegulations for its continued support and assistance  
ยท3ยท ยทin this process, specifically Ms. Deidre O'Berry  
ยท4ยท ยทfrom that office.  
ยท5ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Thank you, Madam Chair.  
ยท6ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSON:ยท Thank you.ยท As set forth  
ยท7ยท ยทin the Michigan Administrative Procedures Act,  
ยท8ยท ยทMichigan Complied Laws, Section 24.241, Subsection  
ยท9ยท ยท1, this public hearing provides the public an  
10ยท ยทopportunity to present data, views, questions or  
11ยท ยทarguments regarding the proposed rules.  
12ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท We will now receive public comments from  
13ยท ยทthose in attendance.ยท Each speaker will be given  
14ยท ยทthree minutes to provide public comment.ยท Are there  
15ยท ยทany in person public comments at this time?  
16ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Seeing none, we will now receive comments  
17ยท ยทfrom anyone participating via Zoom.ยท When speaking,  
18ยท ยทplease state your name and the name of any  
19ยท ยทorganizations you are representing along with your  
20ยท ยทcity and county.  
21ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท I would also ask that anyone providing  
22ยท ยทpublic comment online provide also an email address  
23ยท ยทin the event we need to follow up with you.ยท Is  
24ยท ยทthere anyone wishing to speak at this time?  
25ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Seeing no public comments from anyone  
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ยท1ยท ยทeither in person or online, I will hereby declare  
ยท2ยท ยทthe hearing closed.ยท Any additional or new comments  
ยท3ยท ยทregarding the proposed rules that anyone wishes to  
ยท4ยท ยทshare must be submitted in writing to Lamont Satchel  
ยท5ยท ยทat Cadillac Place, 3054 West Grand Boulevard, third  
ยท6ยท ยทfloor, Detroit, Michigan by 5 o'clock P.M. today or  
ยท7ยท ยทemailed to Mr. Satchel at either mdcr-  
ยท8ยท ยทcommissionrules-public-comment@Michigan.gov or  
ยท9ยท ยทSatchel, S-A-T-C-H-E-L-L 1@michigan.gov by 11:59  
10ยท ยทP.M. today.ยท The record will remain open until today  
11ยท ยทat 11:59 P.M. for emailed comments and until 5 P.M.  
12ยท ยทfor hand-delivered comments.ยท The current time is  
13ยท ยท1:44 P.M.  
14ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท Madam Chair --  
15ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSONยท Yes.  
16ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท -- before you conclude, I  
17ยท ยทwould just like to note for the record, as required  
18ยท ยทby the Michigan Administrative Procedures Act, we're  
19ยท ยทrequired to have a sign-in sheet where individuals  
20ยท ยทcan indicate that they would like to participate in  
21ยท ยทperson in providing comments.ยท I will just note for  
22ยท ยทthe record that we did have that sheet, it's here;  
23ยท ยทno one signed it.  
24ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSON:ยท Thank you very much,  
25ยท ยทAttorney Satchel.ยท This concludes this public  
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ยท1ยท ยทhearing.ยท I would like to thank all those who have  
ยท2ยท ยทparticipated and provided or will provide public  
ยท3ยท ยทcomments.ยท Any comments received will be duly  
ยท4ยท ยทconsidered.  
ยท5ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Unless there is nothing further from  
ยท6ยท ยทfellow commissioners, I will now entertain a motion  
ยท7ยท ยทto conclude this hearing.  
ยท8ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท COMMISSIONER ELHASAN:ยท Motion to adjourn.  
ยท9ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSON:ยท Thank you, Commissioner  
10ยท ยทElhasan.ยท Is there support?  
11ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท COMMISSIONER WORTHAMS:ยท Support.  
12ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSONยท Thank you, Commissioner  
13ยท ยทWorthams.ยท This public hearing is now adjourned.  
14ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. SATCHEL:ยท I would note, Madam Chair,  
15ยท ยทthat it's concluded at 1:45.  
16ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CHAIR ROBERSONยท 1:45.ยท My apologies.  
17ยท ยทThis public hearing is adjourned at 1:45 P.M.  
18ยท ยทThank you.  
19ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท __ยท ยท ยท__ยท ยท ยท__  
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ยท1ยท ยทCERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC - COURT REPORTER  
ยท2  
ยท3ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท I do certify that the attached  
ยท4ยท ยทproceedings were taken before me in the  
ยท5ยท ยทabove-entitled matter; that the proceedings  
ยท6ยท ยทcontained herein was by me reduced to writing by  
ยท7ยท ยทmeans of stenography, and afterwards transcribed  
ยท8ยท ยทupon a computer.ยท The attached pages are a true and  
ยท9ยท ยทcomplete transcript of the proceedings.  
10ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท I do further certify that I am not  
11ยท ยทconnected by blood or marriage with any of the  
12ยท ยทparties, their attorneys or agents, and that I am  
13ยท ยทnot an employee of either of them, nor interested,  
14ยท ยทdirectly or indirectly, in the matter of  
15ยท ยทcontroversy.  
16ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทIN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set  
17ยท ยทmy hand and affixed my notarial seal at West  
18ยท ยทBloomfield, Michigan, County of Oakland, this 26th  
19ยท ยทday of January 2023.  
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ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ____________________________________  
22ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Theresa L. Roberts, CSR  
23ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Certified Shorthand Reporter - CSR-4870  
24ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Notary Public - Oakland County, MI  
25ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท My commission expires 10-04-2027  
Hearing  
01/23/2023  
ยท1  
adopted 6:4  
closed 8:2  
codify 6:3  
1
adoption 6:15  
advise 5:3  
1 4:2,4 7:9  
comment 4:18,24,25 5:9 7:14,  
22  
11:59 4:10 8:9,11  
15th 2:20  
afternoon 2:5  
allowing 6:1  
comments 3:16,20,22,24  
4:10,11,21,22 5:5,20 6:10  
7:12,15,16,25 8:2,11,12,21  
9:3  
1:37 2:3,15  
apologies 9:16  
arguments 7:11  
assistance 7:2  
attendance 7:13  
Attorney 3:14 8:25  
Attorneys 6:23  
audience 4:17  
1:44 8:13  
commission 2:8,13,22 5:22,  
25 6:4,7  
1:45 9:15,16,17  
1@michigan.gov 8:9  
Commissioner 3:2,4,5,6,7,8,  
9,10,11,12,13 9:8,9,11,12  
2
commissioners 2:25 5:7 9:6  
2018 6:22  
commissionrules-public-  
comment@michigan.gov 8:8  
2023 2:2,15  
23 2:2,15  
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commissions 6:17  
complied 5:11 7:8  
conclude 8:16 9:7  
concluded 9:15  
concludes 8:25  
conducted 2:10  
considered 9:4  
continued 7:2  
copies 3:16,18  
copy 4:6  
24.241 5:11 7:8  
basis 6:8  
begin 5:5,19 6:10  
behalf 2:11  
3
3054 2:16 4:8 8:5  
3rd 4:8  
BFOQ 6:5  
Boulevard 2:16 4:8 8:5  
briefly 6:12  
5
C
5 4:12 5:11 8:6,11  
Cadillac 2:15 4:8 8:5  
call 2:25 4:15  
called 2:14  
A
Corriveau 3:8,9  
counsel 5:12  
acknowledge 6:20  
Act 2:11 5:10 7:7 8:18  
add 6:10  
county 5:1 7:20  
current 6:21 8:12  
careful 6:15  
Chair 2:5,21 3:1,3,14 6:11 7:5,  
6 8:14,15,24 9:9,12,14,16  
addition 3:23  
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chance 4:18  
changed 6:5  
circulation 2:19  
city 5:1 7:20  
additional 5:6 8:2  
address 5:3 7:22  
adjourn 9:8  
data 7:10  
December 2:20  
declare 8:1  
definitions 5:21  
Deidre 7:3  
adjourned 9:13,17  
civil 2:8,12,13,22 4:7 5:13,22,  
25 6:16  
administrative 2:7,11 5:10  
7:1,7 8:18  
clarify 5:21  
Hearing  
01/23/2023  
ยท2  
delivered 4:6  
floor 4:9 8:6  
K
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department 2:8,12 4:7 5:13,  
14,25  
follow 5:4 7:23  
Kim 6:23  
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departments 6:17  
designated 5:13  
Detroit 2:1,16 4:9 8:6  
discussions 5:15  
documents 3:19  
duly 9:3  
general 2:19 5:12  
giving 4:25  
L-150 2:16  
lake 6:16  
Good 2:5  
Grand 2:16 4:8 8:5  
grant 6:8  
Lamont 5:12 8:4  
Lansing 4:9  
Lara 3:4,5  
duration 6:6  
granted 6:6  
great 6:16  
Lastly 6:20  
Latham 6:24  
law 2:19  
E
H
early 6:22  
Ed 6:24  
hand 4:20  
laws 5:11 7:8  
listed 4:16  
efficiency 5:24  
electronic 6:1  
electronically 3:24  
Elhasan 3:6,7 9:8,10  
Elliot 6:24  
hand-delivered 4:11 8:12  
hearing 2:6,7,9,14,18,23 3:18  
7:9 8:2 9:1,7,13,17  
located 4:7  
Londo 3:12,13  
Hearings 7:1  
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email 5:3 7:22  
emailed 4:10 8:7,11  
emails 3:25  
Madam 3:1 6:11 7:5 8:14 9:14  
made 3:17  
Illinois 6:18  
impact 3:18  
make 4:13  
employees 6:21  
entertain 9:6  
entitled 2:7  
implement 6:13  
include 6:23  
Marcelina 6:23  
mdcr- 8:7  
including 6:17  
Indiana 6:18  
mdcr-commissionrules-  
public-comment@michigan.  
gov 4:1,3  
event 7:23  
exception 6:5,6,8  
individuals 4:17 8:19  
intended 5:23 6:13  
Interested 3:20  
issue 2:20  
Michigan 2:1,10,12,17,20,22  
4:7,9 5:10,12,22,25 7:1,7,8  
8:6,18  
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facilitate 5:23  
facilitating 2:23  
fellow 5:6 9:6  
filings 6:1  
Michigan.gov. 4:2,4  
Minnesota 6:18  
minutes 7:14  
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January 2:2,15  
Jerome 6:24  
Monday 2:2,15  
motion 9:6,8  
flexibility 5:24