1

2

STATE OF MICHIGAN

DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS

BUREAU OF PROFESSIONAL LICENSING

- - -

3

4

5

PUBLIC HEARING

6

TUESDAY, MAY 2, 2023

AT ABOUT 9:00 A.M.

7

8

- - -

9

OTTAWA BUILDING

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

611 W. OTTAWA STREET, UL-5

LANSING, MICHIGAN

- - -

RE: Barber Examiners - General Rules

(MOAHR #2022-29 LR)

Cosmetology - General Rules

(MOAHR #2022-19 LR)

- - -

17 HEARING FACILITATOR:

18

19

20

21

22

DENA MARKS

Bureau of Professional Licensing

611 W. Ottawa Street

Lansing, Michigan 48909

ALSO PRESENT: Kerry Przybylo

Stephanie Wysack

- - -

23 REPORTED BY: Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315

24

25

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

2

1

I N D E X

2 Opening Statement - Dena Marks

3 COMMENTS:

4

PAGE

6

4

5

NATASHA LAWSON - Douglas J

DEMETRIA WILLIAMS - Michigan College of Beauty

CHRISTINA NEWMAN - Multi Media Makeup Academy

ASHLYN ALEXANDER

8

6

9

7

12

13

14

16

17

21

22

24

26

28

30

33

37

38

40

41

42

47

48

8

THERESE VOEVODSKY - BeauBien Holistic Care

JESSICA ABFALTER

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

PAUL CHIRCO - Alisa Marie Brows

DAVID DAGENAIS - Michigan College of Beauty

SUSAN KOLAR

NEKEYTA BRUNSON - Uncovered Beauty Studio

DeANNA HUIZINGA - Grand Pearl Spa

SYDNEY SHAW

MEAGAN McCOMBER - The Babe Company

ERIN DRESSER - Skin Deep Day Spa

DARYN PACKER - Face Foundrie

THERESE VOEVODSKY - BeauBien Holistic Care

JAMIE BURNS

SUSAN KOLAR

DARYN PACKER - Face Foundrie

NICOLE MAYNARD - Skin Deep Day Spa

JESSICA ABFALTER

CARLI HOLSTAD

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

3

1

I N D E X

2 Opening Statement - Dena Marks

48

3

4

- - -

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

4

1

2

Lansing, Michigan

Tuesday, May 2, 2023

At about 9:00 a.m.

3

4

- - -

5

MR. MacINTOSH: Good morning. My name is

Dena Marks, and I am a Departmental Specialist in the

Boards and Committee Section within the Bureau of

Professional Licensing in the Department of Licensing and

Regulatory Affairs, and I will be conducting the hearing

today.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

This is a public hearing on proposed

administrative rules entitled "Barbers - General Rules"

and "Cosmetology - General Rules". We are conducting

this hearing under the authority of the Administrative

Procedures Act, Public Act 306 of 1969, on behalf of the

Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of

Professional Licensing.

We are calling this hearing to order at

9:00 a.m. on May the 2nd, 2023, at the Ottawa Building,

UL-5, 611 West Ottawa Street in Lansing, Michigan.

Publication of the notice of public hearing was in the

Flint Journal and the Grand Rapids Press on April 9,

2023, and the Mining Journal on April 14, 2023. These

papers are newspapers of general circulation. The

notices were also published in the Michigan Register,

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

5

1

2

Issue #7-2023, on May 1, 2023.

We are here today to receive comments on

the proposed rules. If you wish to speak, please make

sure you have signed in and indicated you wish to speak.

You may use the cards provided for this purpose. If you

would like to speak and have not yet signed in, please do

so now. For those of you who do not wish to sign in with

a card, you may speak once we have exhausted all of the

cards that have been submitted.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

If you have comments, please make sure

they relate directly to the proposed rules. If you have

questions about the rules, please include your questions

as part of your testimony for the Department's review.

If you have suggested changes to the proposed rules,

please include the specific reasons why the changes would

be in the public interest. Please note, if you have

already submitted comments to the Department in writing

or by email, those comments will be considered in the

same manner as the comments made during the public

hearing today.

For those making comments today, please

clearly state and spell your name for the record; and if

you are speaking on behalf of an organization, please

identify that organization as well. So everyone has the

opportunity to speak, please limit your comments to three

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

6

1

2

to five minutes. If you have additional comments, they

may be submitted in writing by emailing

BPL-BoardSupport@Michigan.gov.

3

4

The Department staff -- I'm sorry, I've

lost my spot.

5

6

If you have written comments, you may

7

submit them directly to me. The Department will also

accept written comments postmarked or emailed until 5:00

p.m. today.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

The Department staff from the Bureau of

Professional Licensing attending today's hearing are

LeAnn Payne, Kerry Przybylo, Stephanie Wysack, and me.

At this time, we will begin with comments

concerning the "Barber - General Rules." Are there any

comments concerning that rule set? (No response.)

Seeing none. Then we will now take

comments on the "Cosmetology - General Rules". And the

first card I have, is for Natasha Lawson.

NATASHA LAWSON: That is me. So after

reviewing the --

MS. MARKS: Would you please introduce

yourself and spell your name. Thank you.

NATASHA LAWSON: Natasha Lawson, and the

spelling is N-a-t-a-s-h-a L-a-w-s-o-n. I have two main

concerns with the proposed laws and rules. The first

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

7

1

2

concern, I do see that unassigned hours have been added

in, however, it is two percent or less than two percent

of these students' programs. There are many things in my

14 years of educating that I have found that don't neatly

fit into any of these curriculum guidelines that are also

integral to student success. For instance, shadowing at

a salon, being able to have an experience where they're

learning about color maybe from a mindset that's not hair

related. So these things to me are really important. I

propose that instead of it being two percent of their

curriculum for all programs, that it is five percent of

their curriculum for unassigned hours; that would mean

that cosmetology would get 75 hours and all the 400

program, 400-hour programs like esthiology, electrology,

and manicurists would get 20 hours instead of 10.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

My second concern is the change in

verbiage around scope of practice for cosmetology and

esthiology. I was looking through the Regulatory Impact

Statement, and there is a statement in here that I would

just like to point out. I disagree with -- so there's a

piece that says: Do these rules exceed standards in

other states around the Great Lakes region? I would say

that these do not correlate with other states around us.

For instance, Wisconsin specifically says that you can

utilize microdermabrasion and chemical peel machines as

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

8

1

2

long as you're only exfoliating the upper surface of the

skin, where the Michigan state law clearly states that

you cannot use any sort of microderm or product, so

that's concerning to me. Illinois, they also allow

cosmetology and estheticians to utilize chemical peels

and microdermabrasion within a specific scope of

practice, and they do not have to be under medical

license or under a doctor. And Ohio as well also allows

any chemical, mechanical, or electrical service to

exfoliate cells as long as they're within those first few

layers of the skin. So I'm proposing that Michigan take

some time to really look at those other laws and rules of

the states around the area and really clearly define what

is within the scope of practice and without the scope of

practice for an esthetician. So that's it.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

MS. MARKS: Thank you for your comments.

For the next person, we have Demetria Williams.

DEMETRIA WILLIAMS: Demetria Williams,

D-e-m-e-t-r-i-a, Williams, W-i-l-l-i-a-m-s, and I am here

on behalf of Michigan College of Beauty. I really just

want more clarification on the things that it does say

where it says cosmetologists or estheticians, because a

lot of things, even as far as the tinting of the eyebrows

and rearranging of the hair, it does not say a

esthetician, it still doesn't that say an esthetician can

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

9

1

2

do it. It just basically says, the way I read it, it

only falls under cosmetologists, so I would like that to

be clear on the (inaudible) because as far as the law

goes, only a cosmetologist can change or rearrange

anything that has to do with hair.

3

4

5

6

Another one of my things that I was going

7

to ask about was the spelling out of anything that has

had to do, that a esthetician versus a cosmetologist, and

then in some of the rules making amendments, so they were

talking about field trips and how that needs to be

spelled out, like what can we do as a field trip, what

those guidelines would go, how many hours would be

allowed for a field trip outside of school and what it

would entail; like are they allowed to go to another

state, does the instructor have to be there, what entails

a field trip?

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

And then another question that we had was

about the cosmetologists being able to use a razor to

like shave hair on the face. So can they use a straight

razor, because I know a razor is big thing as far as a

blade goes in this portion? That's it.

MS. MARKS: Thank you so much. And the

next person is Christina Newman.

(Multiple speakers, inaudible comments.)

CHRISTINA NEWMAN: Hi, I'm Christina

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

10

1

2

Newman, C-h-r-i-s-t-i-n-a N-e-w-m-a-n, on behalf of Multi

Media Makeup Academy. So my comment is regarding

verbiage, and I was part of the work group meetings that

took place at the end of last year, and I think we made a

lot of headway, but there's still some things that I feel

are unclear regarding some of the proposed changes.

Under (j) Performing services that are

3

4

5

6

7

8

limited to the scope of practice of a licensed healthcare

profession regulated under 15 of the Public Code, just

including, but not limited to microdermabrasion,

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

dermaplaning, hydrodermabrasion, Botox injections, it

looks like we're trying to eliminate unless he or she is

performing a service that is delegated under the Section

162 -- 16015 of the Public Health Code. So I've been

fielding a lot of comments and questions from

estheticians in the State of Michigan on social media

since Friday, believe it or not. There's a lot of

concern that eliminating that sentence makes it so that

estheticians who are under the guidance of a licensed

healthcare professional cannot perform some of these

services. Yes, they should never perform Botox, but by

lumping that in with something like dermaplaning, which

is technically removal of the hair with a razor, people

are going to be able to lose their livelihood, a large

portion of us. So I think that needs further clarity.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

11

1

2

And then I had a couple laser hair

removal techs reach out to me because they see just user

possess a laser or an ultrasound for any purpose, and

that needs clarity. If you are working within a

facility, again, under a licensed healthcare professional

and you've been properly trained and you're under the

guidance of them, I don't understand why that would be

worded like that, so more clarity on that.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

And then I'm also proposing under (r) Use

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

any color, tint, or chemical preparation on the eyelashes

or eyebrows of a patron that is intended to last longer

than six weeks after application, or use any color, tint,

or chemical preparation on the eyelashes that -- or

eyebrows of a patron that is not specifically intended

for that use, I think there's some extra ambiguity there

by having the or statement in the front of that. You

could potentially have anybody use any sort of

demi-permanent hair color on lashes because it lasts less

than six weeks and it's not necessarily meant for the

brows and lashes, that needs to be eliminated and it just

needs to state plainly, use any product that is not

intended for brows and lashes according to the

manufacturer's label. And that was it.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Ashlyn Alexander.

ASHLYN ALEXANDER: Hi. My name is Ashlyn

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

12

1

2

Alexander, A-s-h-l-y-n A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r. I am a State

of Michigan esthetician, licensed esthetician. And my

two biggest concerns would be, first off, I feel like

this is an attack on women in our livelihood. It's sad

to be a Michigan woman today. As lots of estheticians,

most of it, as a woman-dominated industry, we are able to

provide for ourselves without the help of anyone else by

providing these services and helping out our public.

Taking away of lot of these services that we provide

livelihood for ourselves would put us in a far better or

worse situation as far as the economy goes and finances

and taking care of ourselves. We're already dealing with

a tough situation with the economy right now, and then

this is going to further push us below. This is not

helping lift women up today, and that's disheartening to

have to say right now.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

So to the State of Michigan, I would

really want to add two questions. Are you able to

provide and prepare for that lost income that tens of

thousands of women are probably going to face when these

services would be taken away from if that does carry

through? So I have a question. How would that impact

our economy?

And then our biggest thing, too, is that

we deal with -- the skin is a largest organ, which is a

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

13

regulatory system; taking away these services that we

1

2

help people with with this organ, which is our first

defense to the world, diseases, illnesses, you're taking

away providers that can help with causes of the public

health. So that would be my comment. Thank you.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Therese, I

3

4

5

6

7

apologize ahead of time, Vouvodsky.

8

THERESE VOEVODSKY: Hi, I'm Therese

9

Voevodsky, T-h-e-r-e-s-e V-o-e-v-o-d-s-k-y. I represent

BeauBien Holistic Care in Grand Rapids, Michigan, I'm the

owner and managing partner. I feel like I was remiss in

not learning about this until a couple days ago, but

quite honestly, it totally freaked me out when I read it.

I spent all day yesterday on it, and I read all of the

regulations, I read the Regulatory Impact Statement, I

really tried to understand this. But it looks to me as

if you are taking away an entire class of services from

tens of thousands of women in this State, and thousands

of women-owned businesses are going to go under because

of this.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

And I'm getting a little upset because,

like I said, I just learned about this yesterday. And

the way that this is written, this even includes -- so

anything that takes away any layer of skin, that takes

away exfoliation, peels, it takes away everything.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

14

1

2

There's no way -- we might as well close up shop, because

if my estheticians can't even do an exfoliation or a

peel, we're done.

3

4

I have four estheticians, two doctors,

5

and a nurse that work for me. The doctors and the nurses

are not going to want to provide these services, and

they're not trained in it. So not only will we be taking

away the livelihood of thousands of women, we'll be

putting it on doctors and nurses that are already

overloaded, and essentially no one is going to be able to

provide these services anymore. They don't know how to

do this. We'll have more injuries, if there are any, and

that was my first point in my email that I sent. Show me

the studies that people are getting injured, that

Michiganders are getting hurt by training licensed

professionals providing these services. I just, I don't

understand it. So you have my written comments.

MS. MARKS: Thank you for your comments.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Jessica Abfalter.

JESSICA ABFALTER: Hello. My name is

Jessica Abfalter, spelled J-e-s-s-i-c-a

A-b-l-f-a-l-t-e-r. First, I'd like to echo all the

statements that have come before mine. Everything these

women have said, I completely agree with.

There are many issues that I have with

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

15

1

2

these proposed changes, including, but not limited to,

there's contradiction regarding the use of sanitation of

makeup brushes, vague language, like the word

3

4

beautifying, elimination of the word chemical from the

esthiology curriculum, lack of clarity with regards to

the use of exfoliant products, and lash and brow dye, and

unnecessary regulation of blades, clippers, and scissors

that potentially disallow estheticians, barbers, and

cosmetologists from simple acts like trimming eyebrows or

cleaning up a neckline. And while those are many issues,

what I find the most concerning is the transfer of some

advanced esthetic treatments to the realm of the

physician, specifically microdermabrasion,

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

hydrodermabrasion, and similar treatments like chemical

peels.

Don't misunderstand; I love doctors,

they're the reason I'm able to be here today, but that

doesn't change the fact that I can personally attest to

the fact that adding an M.D. to a spa does not make it

safer. On the contrary, what I and other colleagues in

the medical esthetics field have observed is that many

so-called med spas don't have their doctor on site, and

even more are operated by physicians who do not

specialize in anything related to skincare. Even worse,

some of these doctors do not hire estheticians to do this

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

16

1

2

work. While it may seem logical that requiring medical

supervision over advanced treatments would improve their

safety, this rule change does nothing to protect the

public. Given the chance to choose between a licensed

esthetician and a medical assistant who was trained on

the job, I'm going to choose the esthe every single time.

The policy also takes income from a

3

4

5

6

7

8

highly specialized group of professionals and puts it in

the hands of physicians who already have high earning

potential, and possess a greater degree of risk to the

public because of the reasons I have already mentioned.

Not only that, this rule change takes the

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

power of regulation away from the Board of Cosmetology

and puts it in the hands of doctors and the Public Health

Code. We have seen an influx of medical spas and

doctors' offices offering anti-aging therapies over the

past 10 to 15 years, and skin rejuvenation technology

will only continue to grow, so there is no doubt that

regulatory policy will have to change to keep up.

Personally, I would like to see the governing body of our

industry do more to protect our interests than those

of -- and not those of physicians who already have their

own representation. Thank you.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Paul Chirco.

PAUL CHIRCO: Hi. Paul Chirco, P-a-u-l

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

17

1

2

C-h-i-r-c-o. I'm here on behalf of Alisa Maria Brows.

My objection is to paragraph (r), which has a six-week

limit on a tint, color, or chemical prep on eyebrows and

eyelashes. The six weeks, in my opinion and many

opinion, is that this is arbitrary, pulled out of a hat,

it's not based on any kind of science. By setting this

arbitrary number, you're subject to constitutional

standards. A reg can't be arbitrary or capricious.

Numerous products specific to the eyebrows last 6 to 8

weeks, can last up to 12 weeks. These products are safe

and effective. No health professional will perform these

services because, as was pointed out before, estheticians

have been doing this service for many years. You're

potentially taking away the livelihood of hundreds of

women on a number pulled off of a hat.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

My question is, what is your objection

of -- objections -- on what are your objective on this:

Is it permanency? Is it invasiveness? Is it health and

safety? None of these apply or are changed by the

six-week limitation there. I would ask to change this

limitation to 12 weeks since most of the products that

are out there, if not all, last less than 12 weeks.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. David, I'm sorry,

I'm not even going to try your last name.

DAVID DAGENAIS: Yes. David Dagenais,

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

18

1

2

spelled D-a-g-e-n-a-i-s. I'm with the Michigan College

of Beauty, I'm the owner of Michigan College of Beauty in

Troy, Michigan, it was incorporated in 1973, I'm the

second generation owner, my son, Drew, is currently being

trained to be the third generation owner.

3

4

5

6

Michigan College of Beauty has branch

7

campus licenses for approximately 30 years. We currently

hold four branch campus licenses. In 2018, the

8

9

cosmetology rules committee started revamping the rules

that regulated the cosmetology industry. We attended

these negotiations and were told the statute did not

allow for the issuance of branch campus licenses. As a

result, the 2018/19 rules committee agreed to create

R 338.2127 with language to allow for more than one

premises, and described the conditions under which the

existing schools could have not a branch campus, but a

more than one premises. This was all agreed upon.

In January 2022, during the school's

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

biannual inspection, the State Board inspector asked me

if I was planning on renewing my cosmetology branch

campus licenses, and assured me that she thought it was

not necessary given the language in the newly amended

R 338.2127 allowing for more than one premises. In early

2022, an entirely new rules committee started once again

revamping the rules pertaining the cosmetology industry.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

19

1

2

In the spring they decided to eliminate the concept of

more than one premises because there was no objection to

removing it and no one on the committee had the frame of

reference as to why the previous committee had added the

more than one premises language. The changes to rule

R 338.2127 will not allow for a school after their branch

campus license expires to have more than one premises.

During MCB's summer inspection of

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

August 2022, the inspection notified us that we would not

be able to use these branch campus facilities after the

branch campus licenses expired. The news was a complete

surprise to us as we understood that the concept of more

than one premises was established and accepted by LARA.

Upon the news, we began attending each and every new

rules meeting as we looked into the whole concept of more

than one premises being removed from the rules. The new

committee had not -- the new committee, who had not been

there during the 2018/19 negotiation, had decided with no

opposition to remove the entire more than one premises

language.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Why does the concept of more than one

premises need to be reexamined? What would closing four

out of the five locations that MCB currently operates do

to jobs, current students, training in the cosmetology

field, staffing resources for local salon owners who have

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

20

1

2

relied on us for decades, our local economy, and State

tax revenue? During a time of economic uncertainty, the

effect would be detrimental.

3

4

These locations, which are strictly used

5

for extra classroom space, are not part of the student

clinic floor, are within a quarter mile of our main

campus, two of them we actually share a common parking

lot. We often walk back and forth between the facilities

daily. There is no language in the statute to indicate

where a cosmetology training needs to be performed as

long as it's supervised by a licensed instructor

following the school's curriculum. The elimination of

more than one premises would restrict the school's

ability to quickly, inexpensively, and flexibly expand to

meet the industry ever-changing needs. This would harm

both salon owners that rely on schools for newly licensed

staff and the access that future hair stylists have to

training.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Being a small business, and our schools

are, it is difficult to stay viable as is. Restricting

the school's ability to quickly respond to changes and

demands does not make sense and will inevitably be

detrimental to the industry. MCB does not believe that

Governor Whitmer's administration would put into

regulation laws that would seek to stifle growth in the

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

21

1

2

cosmetology industry and to create job loss. This

regulation implementation would do exactly that and give

Michiganders one more reason to seek education, careers,

and opportunities in other states.

3

4

5

In closing, we are requesting to maintain

6

the option for more than one premise as presented in

R 338.2127 Section 10. Thank you.

7

8

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Susan Kolar.

9

SUSAN KOLAR: My name is Susan Kolar,

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

S-u-s-a-n K-o-l-a-r. I concur with everyone's comments

so far. I think the saddest thing is this started a long

time ago. The rules committee that would be open with

comments that you could give your ideas. Being a

licensed for special, and as a retired instructor, I

stayed abreast of everything because I'm just nosy and

it's my passion. As I've trained -- I've been teaching

for over 45 years. I was an examiner for the State of

Michigan. I've worked for three very good schools. And

I just -- it's our livelihood that we're overthinking the

statements in these rules that we're taking away the crux

of what they do. All right.

I guess I agree that maybe some of these

need to be under guidance or, you know, directed by a

medical licensee, I get some of that, I almost agree with

that, but to the point where we can't do exfoliation,

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

22

1

2

we're limited to six weeks on a tint, we can't do lash

lifts, which are intended for that use, I think we need

to simplify some of the work verbiage and be specific on

other verbiage, such as the field trips. It used to be

there, and it was fine, everybody was clear, an

instructor had to be there, you were limited to so many

hours, and they took it away. I guess that's pretty much

it in a nutshell. Thank you.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Nekeyta Brunson.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

NEKEYTA BRUNSON: My name is Nekeyta

Brunson, N-e-k-e-y-t-a B-r-u-n-s-o-n. I'm a licensed

esthetician, I own Uncovered Beauty Studio, which is in

Lansing. Over the past six years, I became a licensed

esthetician because I help women who are going through

hair loss, and even when you lose your hair, we all have

skin. And so I've gone through school, I completed all

the requirements, I've paid all the monies to have an

establishment.

My comment would be on who's enforcing

these things, because as someone who's gone through these

last six years and trying to figure out what we can do

and what we can't do, it was already very difficult to

figure out. I want to do what's right to have the

establishment, have it be done right for these women; it

was already confusing on who to call, who to say what.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

23

1

2

I'm calling LARA; they don't know. I'm asking them what

it's in the scope; they don't know.

3

So as we are doing all these different

4

changes with the wording and the verbiage, the other

thing that us licensed professionals are having issues

with is social media and those who aren't licensed are

already doing these things from home or from their

places, and so who's protecting us when we pay all the

money to go to school, we're paying all this money for

these equipments, these licenses, these insurances, and

we've done all of that, and then social media, people

from home can, or from different places can just come in

and do it, they're not doing it right, nobody's

regulating it, nobody's shutting them down. There are

places that are not following the rules that you already

have in place, and they're not getting shut down. So I

feel like it's just causing more and more trouble.

I agree with the professionalism, I agree

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

that these things should be more clear, because we do

take our industry professionally and we are trying to

help women in a very safe way, women and men, because

40 percent of my business is men, they'll just come if

they want to. But either way, like the goals for the

people who are following the rules is to follow the

rules, and we want them to be clear, yes, we want them to

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

24

1

2

be safe, yes, we also want to be protected as a

professional to say if there are people not following

those rules, we expect for them to have the, the

repercussions happen, and we're not, we're already not

seeing that our industry is being protected in that way.

So as you update the rules, also update like the workers

who are going to be able to go behind and find out who is

not following these rules that there are going to be so

many people trying to now continue to implement into

their business to figure out how to continue to provide

for their families.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

MS. MARKS: Thank you. DeAnna Huizinga.

DEANNA HUIZINGA: I was in the other

room. My name is DeAnna Huizinga, D-e-a-n-n-a

H-u-i-z-i-n-g-a. I'm representing myself, along with my

coworkers. I work at Grand Pearl Spa in Grand Rapids,

Michigan. I have been a licensed cosmetologist for over

30 years now, I've worked at our practice for 26 years.

The whole reason why I am concerned is I

work with a group of plastic surgeons. I am a

cosmetologist, so there are occasions where physicians

say we work under their medical license, but I'm not

risking my cosmetology license for anyone. So I worked

really hard to get where I am, continue education,

continue going to classes, and I'm not going to have

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

25

1

2

somebody come in and say you can't do that now because

these rules and regulations are not clear and clarified.

I agree with everything that everybody

3

4

has said here, everybody has definitely proved their

point; but in my case, I look forward to going to work

every single day, otherwise I wouldn't be there for 26

years. I am a previous breast cancer survivor, and if it

wasn't for my coworkers exfoliating my skin and giving me

facials, I wouldn't have the confidence to come back to

work. If it wasn't for them exfoliating my breasts after

radiation, I wouldn't have the confidence to actually

show people. I'm proud of my breasts now. So for me, to

have that ability to then do that to someone else, I'm

proud of that. So for you guys to have that ability to

take that away from me and my coworkers is really

disheartening.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

And how am I supposed to pay my bills if

you take that away from me? I am in a large amount of

debt, and now you're going to take this away. I won't be

able to dermaplane somebody, I won't be able to do a

hydrofacial, I won't be able to help somebody. That's

just ludicrous, and I just feel like you are taking such

a big chunk of benefit away not just from us providers,

but from people that come in and want to feel better and

feel good about themselves.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

26

1

2

So my public comment is you have to make

the wording more accurate, more specific, and you also

have to make a difference between medical spas and what's

at cosmetology locations, hair salons, and schools,

because there is no clear definition to what you can do

at a medical spa versus what you can do at a hair salon

versus what you can do at a medical practice. And if it

was me, I'd rather have somebody that has 26 years' worth

of experience treating skin than somebody that was just

trained as an MA.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

I mean like they they've always said to

me, there's somebody that came in last at medical school

and there's always somebody that barely passed the bar in

law school; who do you want working on you, the one that

graduated top of their class or the one that barely

passed? So that's my public comment.

MS. MARKS: Thank you.

DEANNA HUIZINGA: Sorry for being

emotional.

MS. MARKS: No problem. Sydney Shaw.

UNIDENTIFIIED: Congratulations.

DEANNA HUIZINGA: Thank you.

SYDNEY SHAW: My name is Sydney Shaw

S-y-d-n-e-y S-h-a-w. I've been a esthetician for over

six years now.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

27

1

2

I'm for these changes in the cosmetology

setting, but I'm not for these changes within a medical

setting, especially with the medical team on site. I

certainly don't agree that Botox should be administered

by an esthetician or a cosmetologist; that is just

unethical, in my opinion. We should be able to

dermaplane and perform these services with blood-borne

pathogen annual training and certification. I certainly

believe there should be more regulation on the

certifications that are required, but we should be able

to laser, hydrofacial, chemical peel, et cetera, with

proper certification and training, which the verbiage is

unclear whether these rules are pertaining to

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

estheticians or cosmetologists. Because as an

esthetician, our governing board is the Board of

Cosmetology, it is unclear whether -- who these rules are

pertaining to exactly, because from my understanding,

this is essentially limiting people even if they have

medical oversight.

So my question is, are you trying to rule

out these services in salons, because, in my opinion, on

behalf of the opinion of many others, with medical

oversight and continued hours of education on these

services, excluding injections, should be allowed under

specific circumstances in medical facilities? My biggest

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

28

1

2

concern is clarity on what is pertaining to

cosmetologists and estheticians, and what services will

be taken away and what will be continued to be performed

with direct medical supervision? Thank you.

3

4

5

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Meagan McComber.

6

MEAGAN McCOMBER: Sorry, I'm very new to

7

this process. My name is Meagan McComber, M-e-a-g-a-n

M-c-C-o-m-b-e-r. I'm a licensed esthetician, I'm

representing The Babe Company, a licensed skincare

facility.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

I have spent countless hours that have

been dedicated to my continuing education and learning

and making me an expert in my profession of skincare.

Many of the services in question, such as general

exfoliation, is extensively covered in esthetic school

where we also learn to provide proper skin analysis and

make treatment recommendations, however, I understand

that many of the services that I offer and provide for my

clients on a day-to-day basis in my esthetic studio,

which I own and operate, are not covered in the general

education required by the State of Michigan to obtain a

esthetics license, however, I, like many of the other

estheticians that are concerned about the possibility of

these new prohibitions to be put into effect have gone

above and beyond the general requirements. I've spent

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

29

1

2

plenty of time taking -- plenty of time and money taking

courses and training outside of my general education,

making me knowledgable and proficient specifically

regarding dermaplaning, microneedling, chemical peels,

lash lift and tint, eyebrow laminations and tint,

hydrodermabrasion, and permanent makeup, dedicating

myself, just like our license requires us, to be of good

moral character to provide these services. Many of these

services people would attempt to provide for themselves

in their own home settings and will continue to do so,

especially if we are not permitted to perform them -- for

them in a professional and regulated setting. Most all

of the materials required to perform most of the services

that the State wishes to prohibit are readily available

for the general public to purchase and not regulated by

any markets to be sold only to professionals.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

If I am not permitted to provide the

services the State wishes to prohibit for my clients any

longer, my business will most likely fail, as I

specialize in skin rejuvenation renewal, specifically

curing acne. If I have to send my clients to a medical

specialist for what I normally provide for them, they're

not going to receive the same standard of care. In my

experience, medical professionals rarely have interest in

caring, they will more than likely focus only on

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

30

treatments, many times with temporary results, using

1

2

extreme or unnecessary force, never caring to find what

the root cause of the problem is. More than likely,

medical professionals will also have little to no

interest providing services that the State wishes to

prohibit us from providing, which, as I stated earlier,

will lead clients to perform the services at home

themselves, which is extremely dangerous.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

If the State wishes for a higher

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

education regarding the services they wish to prohibit,

they should make it a part of the curriculum that the

State requires to obtain an esthetics license. So many

estheticians will suffer from client loss, as well as

loss of income, if the State does choose to go ahead with

these limitations that they wish to put into effect.

It is my hope as a well-educated

professional and as somebody who cares deeply about the

wellbeing of my clients that the State will reconsider

what they are about to do. Thank you.

MS. MARKS: Erin Dresser.

ERIN DRESSER: Hi. My name is name is

Erin Dresser, D-r-e-s-s-e-r, and I am a licensed

esthetician and have been in this industry for 23 years,

I'm also a medical assistant. I own a spa and have owned

it for 17 years in, and I do have a medical director that

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

31

1

2

oversees our medical supervision.

So the part that concerns me is the

prohibition section regarding hydrofacials,

3

4

microdermabrasions, chemicals peels. I do agree with the

Botox being only administrated by professionals, however,

hydroabrasion, microdermabrasion, chemical peels I do not

think needs medical supervision; most states don't

require that. I have been licensed in California and in

Michigan, so I have a lot of experience with that.

I also have been a medical assistant, and

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

when I first started this career, I worked for plastic

surgeons and dermatologists and they would delegate

chemical peels and microdermabrasions to me with no prior

knowledge of skincare, so when I did obtain licensed

esthetician, when I did go to school for that, I did

learn more about that, and I would much rather have a

licensed esthetician perform those services on me.

I think that eliminating this and the

clarification in the rules is very confusing and it, the

interpretation of it would only be limited to licensed

physicians and nurses to perform these services. Our

healthcare system is already overwhelmed, and I don't --

a lot of the clients and patients that already get this

care would not be able to get the care as easily as they

would need.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

32

1

2

And I think that the delegation part is

unclear. I see that that's crossed off, so does that

mean that licensed estheticians will no longer be able to

be employed by physicians or to perform these services

over -- under medical supervision? In this case, I think

that a lot of estheticians would lose their jobs and

small businesses would have to close their doors.

I've personally owned my business for 17

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

years, and the majority of the services that we provide

are dermaplaning and hydroabrasions and chemical peels,

so if we were not able to provide these services, then it

would really have an effect on our revenue that comes in

from these services. I do employ ten people, five of

them which are estheticians, they're highly trained. I

think that a better approach would be to require more

certifications and more education and put this on the

curriculum for estheticians to require that to obtain a

license. And I -- if you are going to eliminate this and

only have medical supervision, I think estheticians

should be able to perform these services under medical

supervision. They are invasive treatment -- they are

non-invasive treatments, and I don't believe that they

should be taken away from estheticians to perform.

Also, I think that this would increase

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

unemployment, estheticians losing their jobs, it would

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

33

1

2

decrease sales tax that the State gets from estheticians

who retail products. A lot of small businesses have

invested in equipment, and this equipment is very

expensive, so they would be stuck with this equipment,

some of them are still paying on loans to pay this

equipment off, so it would have a very detrimental effect

on all business owners who have invested in this

equipment. Would the State be able to provide

reimbursement for this equipment and this loss?

So in conclusion, I don't think

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

eliminating the practice of hydrodermabrasion,

microdermabrasion, and dermaplaning would be something

that would be a good effect on our State. Thank you.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Daryn Parker.

DARYN PACKER: Hello. My name is Daryn

Packer, not Erin Parker. I represent Face Foundrie.

MS. MARKS: Could you spell the last

name, please?

DARYN PACKER: Yes. P-a-c-k-e-r.

MS. MARKS: And is the first name

D-a-r-y-n?

DARYN PACKER: Yes.

MS. MARKS: Okay.

DARYN PACKER: I represent Face Foundrie,

a focused facial bar in Birmingham, Michigan. I went to

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

34

1

2

the University of Michigan, I've spent the past six years

living in Washington, D.C., California, and Colorado. I

finally found my way back to the place I grew up to help

my mother start a business. We opened our business, Face

Foundrie, in December and we were most recently scouting

our second location last week right here in Lansing, in a

place where there have been dozens of storefronts that

have gone vacant as a result of the COVID epidemic.

After years spent in other frankly progressive places, I

was always proud to be from Michigan where I felt

innovation and entrepreneurship were at the cornerstone

of our culture. These rules place that in jeopardy for

thousands of independent estheticians and small business

owners.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

At Face Foundrie, our primary goal is the

accessibility and providing quality skincare services to

women of all skin types and socioeconomic backgrounds.

We are licensed and insured, we follow the current

guidelines and the laws that are in place. All of our

estheticians are licensed, and they receive further

training from our corporate partners, and each

esthetician must have had our services before they are

able to perform them on clients.

I want to further emphasize how these

rules changes are not just detrimental to thousands of

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

35

estheticians who have spent thousands of dollars and

1

2

hours to learn and perform services to help people feel

better about themselves, it's also detrimental to

thousands of clients that estheticians have helped in

their skincare journeys. Rules like these present

barriers to access. Not all women need medical-grade

treatments. There are dozens of processes that are

already reserved in the medical field. Individuals who

need those more invasive treatments are usually

encouraged to do so by their estheticians.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

So just as a consumer has to choose what

food they put in their body or how to treat the common

cold, they should be able to choose their best path for

skincare treatment and who provides it to them. For some

that would mean spending thousands of dollars at a

medi-spa, but for a great deal of others, it's building a

skincare plan with an esthetician because it's more

cost-effective and it might work better for their skin.

These changes will discredit the professionals that have

spent their careers perfecting these crafts.

There are bad actors, every person in the

room I was just in would probably agree. Any respected

licensed esthetician would tell you they approve of

enforcing rules that eliminate bad actors. A nursing

degree or a medical license does not ensure that there

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

36

will be no bad actors. I think you all know this. I

hope you all know this.

I did not come here to only highlight the

1

2

3

4

problems, I would also like to suggest some solutions

which I think everybody has kind of already highlighted.

Modify the process, ensure there's more training in

schools, cover things more thoroughly like dermaplaning,

ensure that salons and service providers are adhering to

the current rules. I mean what good are rules if they

are not enforced. Making more rules does not ensure that

rules will be enforced. Slapping more rules into the

system does not change anything, especially if the

current rules are not being enforced. Quite frankly,

it's a joke.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

I just lived in Colorado and I was on a

town board, so I know what you guys are sitting here

listening to, but just adding the more and more verbiage

and more rules to something does not create a solution.

I ask you today to do what you were chosen to do, defend

and properly represent the industry, the professionals

you were chosen to represent, hear all of these concerns

and don't let these revisions as they stand go through.

Thank you.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Greg Packer.

Greg Packer. Doesn't look like he's stayed.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

37

1

2

Are there any other comments at this time

about either the "Barber - General Rules" or the

"Cosmetology - General Rules?

3

4

THERESE VOEVODSKY: I would like to add a

few more things. I kind of skipped over everything, and

everyone else was more prepared than I was. Can I add a

few more things?

5

6

7

8

MS. MARKS: Sure.

9

THERESE VOEVODSKY: Okay. Therese

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Vouvodsky, again, T-h-e-r-e-s-e V-o-u-v-o-d-s-k-y. I'm

owner and managing partner of BeauBien Holistic Care in

Grand Rapids.

A couple of the things that I forgot to

mention are, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory here,

but I'm wondering whether or not you are taking away

barbers' ability to use a blade, because, to me, barbers

and estheticians have both really good training in these

areas. So if we're not taking it away from barbers, we

should not be taking it away from estheticians. This is

institutional, and, again, I'm not trying to be

inflammatory, this is institutional sexism. If barbers

can use blades, estheticians should be able to use

blades.

A couple of things that other people said

that I want to highlight again are this is just going to

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

38

1

2

cause more people to go underground and unlicensed people

to be providing these services. The honest people will

follow the rules and go out of business; dishonest people

will continue to provide these services.

3

4

5

And lastly, in your Regulatory Impact

6

Statement, Item No. 32: Explain how these proposed rules

will impact business growth and job creation (or

elimination) in Michigan. The rules are not expected to

have an impact on business growth, job creation, or job

elimination in Michigan. That's ridiculous. This is

going to have a huge impact. So that statement needs to

be redone, and there needs to be a lot more impact

studies or something to go beyond this. I don't think

that there was enough research or analysis put into this.

That's it. Thank you.

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Are there any

other comments at this time about either the Barber Rules

or the Cosmetology Rules?

JAMIE BURNS: I do have a quick comment,

if I could?

MS. MARKS: Certainly. Can you introduce

yourself and spell your name, please?

JAMIE BURNS: Is Jamie Burns, J-a-m-i-e

B-u-r-n-s. I'm an instructor for a small school out of

northern Michigan, we are very brand new.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

39

And reading all over all of this and

1

2

hearing everyone's comments with all of this is kind of

hard to -- we're trying to rebuild our curriculum.

Obviously with all of the changes, it's pretty hard to do

that when nobody really knows what's going on. We come

from a very small community, so we are trying to give our

students a big-city education in a very small town, and

hearing all of your voices, we're trying to give that to

our students, what they have, and when they don't even

know if they're going to be able to do all the things

they love to do makes it really hard for teachers like me

and many others really to know what's going on. And when

we had our agent come in to inspect our school, it's very

disheartening when they don't even know what's going on

and they don't have straight answers for us on what we're

supposed to be doing. So I just really hope that we can

get to a point where those rules and regulations are

adhered so that I can give to my students and my

co-workers and I and everybody else can give our students

the best chance to excel in what I call a very wonderful

career field.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Are there any

other comments at this time?

(Inaudible comments.)

MS. MARKS: Okay. Please introduce

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

40

1

2

yourself again.

SUSAN KOLAR: Susan Kolar, last name

3

K-o-l-a-r. I also since this, I started this found out

that if someone were to register a complaint, because so

many people are doing things that they're not licensed

for and it's all over social media, I understand, and I

believe this is correct, I have a friend that did

complain about a salon that was not licensed, was in

business, and when she filed a complaint of that person

is known to the -- in other words, I get it if you want

to list a name, but how does the owner find, or the

business owner that's not licensed find out who the

complainant is, which she was later bashed on social

media for getting someone in trouble when we all

obviously are here, you want to stay licensed, you want

to do it the way, you know, the laws, you know,

pertaining to us, and I guess I was, I did want to

comment on that, that why can't that be not revealed to

the --

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

UNIDENTIFIIED: (Inaudible.)

(Multiple speakers.)

MS. MARKS: I'm sorry, one at a time.

UNIDENTIFIIED: Oh, I'm sorry.

SUSAN KOLAR: That they, pretty much the

girl that find the complaint was bashed on social media

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

41

1

2

because she filed the complaint that they were not

licensed, and I think that's a -- it should be anonymous

to the, you know, to the person getting in trouble or not

following the laws. And that was it.

3

4

5

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Are there any

6

other comments? (No response.)

7

Hearing none, will take a short recess.

8

Please remember the recording will remain in progress, so

if you want to have conversation, please exit the room to

have a conversation. We'll start back in about 10 or 15

minutes.

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

(Recess from 10:01 a.m. until 10:16 a.m.)

MS. MARKS: We're back on the record at

10:16. There was an additional comment from Daryn

Packer.

DARYN PACKER: Sorry, I just forgot to

add one thing. I just wanted to comment on how like what

this speaks about trade schools. Trade schools, just

like cosmetology, have been a home for people who choose

that route or do not have access to higher education.

These rule changes are classist and elitist in nature,

and it's now going to require a medical degree on top of

services that have been a main source of income for

people who have chosen the trade school route. It kind

of causes me to question whose best interest all of these

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

42

1

2

are in, all of these new rules are in. And I strongly

feel that it's a greedy industry, that it found more

money upfront in providing cosmetic procedures where they

don't have to deal with insurance carriers. Just please

consider what these rules, what these rule changes would

say about trade schooling and its place in our economic

and education system.

3

4

5

6

7

8

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Nicole Maynard.

9

NICOLE MAYNARD: Hi, I'm Nicole Maynard,

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

N-i-c-o-l-e M-a-y-n-a-r-d. I am a licensed esthetician

in the State of Michigan, I've been -- this is going on

my eighth year. I've worked at a med spa, Skin Deep Day

Spa, in Jackson, Michigan, for the last now eight years

this May. We do a variety of treatments, and including

microderms, chemicals peels, hydrofacials, dermaplaning,

all the things that are being taken into consideration

today.

I do agree with everything that everybody

has been talking about today and speaking of, everyone

has done a phenomenal job at educating all of you that

are taking notes for whoever is making this law happen.

This is our livelihood, this is our career, this is

something we've all worked so hard for, just like anybody

else that has gone to school for any career that you're

in.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

43

1

2

So the treatments, I do want to say that

the treatments that we offer as estheticians do change

lives whether anybody believes that or not. If you take

our right away from being able to do all these things,

like I said, dermaplaning, microderms, hydrofacials,

chemical peels, it will not only affect our livelihoods,

our business, our economy, because all the tax dollars

that we bring into the State of Michigan are huge, it

will affect, what I'm more concerned about -- yes, I'm

scared to lose my job, lose everything that we've all

worked for -- but also our clients, our patients, who is

going to be treating their skin conditions that we are?

Not only there's not enough doctors or nurses, the

doctors and nurses, they are -- they are there for

medicine. There are some that go into the esthetics

world, but who is going to train the doctors and nurses

that are going to have to cover all these patients and

clients, because if you take our license away, how are we

going to train them, I mean who is going to is my

question.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

But another thing is with skin, it is the

first thing, one of the girls had said this, this is the

first thing that you see when you meet somebody, and with

mental health on the rise, a lot of people don't keep

into consideration your health, meaning your skin health.

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

44

1

2

It's the first thing that people are seeing. So many of

my clients come in and they are, they are so distraught,

they can't go in public, they've gone to doctor after

doctor after doctor getting antibiotics, topical

3

4

5

over-stripping products because they don't really have

the knowledge and they don't find the -- they don't make

the time because they don't have the time; like Erin, my

boss, said, they are overly stressed with their workload

already. Who is going to -- who's going to treat them?

So I would like clarification, as well as

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

all of us, on why this act is happening, who is trying to

do it; is it the doctors, is it the nurses, is it the

State, or is it the colleges? I mean are we taking away

from colleges, because I don't really see how that is

because colleges are -- colleges, it's not for everybody.

Trade schools, like the gal said before me, are huge, and

this is our, this is what we went to school for. And

with that being said, if you take all this away from us,

what was the point in all of our schooling? What was the

point of all of our education on skin?

Our human interaction with people, like

our bedside manner with our clients is huge. You don't

get that at a doctor's office. The doctors and nurses

are still crucial to our world, to our, to our business,

to our clients, but they are not the ones that are

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

45

1

2

treating them on an every-single-day basis, they are the

ones referring them to see us. So that's what -- that's

my say on it.

3

4

And then I, the other thing I'd like to

5

say is there needs more clarification and separation from

the esthetician world versus cosmetology.

6

7

Cosmetologists, when I was in school, for example, I,

once I went into gamma and to the advanced, like I went

through all my introduction of esthetician, then I went

to gamma where I was seeing clients, they pulled me

because I was the top of my class to go and train the

cosmetologists. They got two weeks of training, I got

600 hours of training. So a cosmetologist, in my

opinion, should not have the same, the same laws as we do

unless they go and do the advanced education. That's not

that I'm saying take it away from cosmetologists, but

have them get -- have them get all the certifications

that we do, all the licensing. And if you're wanting to

make any laws, I would say add in more education to both

cosmetologists and estheticians so that when estheticians

leave school, they are prepared for the real world.

We all thought that we knew so much

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

coming out of esthetic school until you get into a med

spa, and we have months of training to learn everything.

And like my boss, she does an amazing job at making sure

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

46

1

2

we are giving safe, safe treatments to our clients, so we

are -- so we're doing months and months of training and

having our reps come in all the medical procedures that

we're doing, we're doing all the blood-borne pathogens,

like Sydney said, all of those certifications, we're

doing the safest approach as possible and we're changing

peoples lives, and if you take this away from us, not are

you going to be taking away women-owned businesses, and

woman dominantly own the career, but the mental health is

going to skyrocket with issues because people's skin

needs us. So that's it.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

MS. MARKS: Thank you.

NICOLE MAYNARD: Thank you.

MS. MARKS: Are there anymore comments at

this time about the "Barber" or "Cosmetology - General

Rules"?

JESSICA ABFALTER: I'd like to add

another thought.

MS. MARKS: (Inaudible.)

JESSICA ABFALTER: My name is Jessica

Abfalter, spelled J-e-s-s-i-c-a A-b-f-a-l-t-e-r. I'd

like to put it on the public record that this broad,

sweeping law change was issued by a group of

cosmetologists, and to double down on what the previous

speaker said, there is a distinct difference between the

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

47

1

2

practice of cosmetology and the study of esthetics and

practice of esthetics. Thirty years ago it might have

made sense to have a board comprised completely of

cosmetologists overseeing this entire industry, but that

day has long passed. And I think that a lot of the

issues with vagueness, language, lack of clarity,

inability to match the states around us, these are all

symptoms of having legislation or rules written by people

who are not actually representative of the people they

are governing and making decisions for. So I would like

to see if more of this type of behavior is coming from

the Board, that there's an actual licensed esthetician

with experience sitting on that Board to help clarify the

language before these things are even brought out into

the public. Thank you.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Cani Holstad.

CARLI HOLSTAD: Carli Holstad.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. I'm sorry.

CARLI HOLSTAD: C-a-r-l-i H-o-l-s-t-a-d.

I'm here today, I think I'm probably one of the only

people who is here not as an esthetician, but I'm here as

a patient, a supporter of my sister and my best friend.

I have gone to every single doctor in the

Lansing area for my acne. I struggled with horrible

cystic acne, and everything a doctor has done, they've

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

48

1

2

gone, here's a pill and there you go, and then they say

see your OB/GYN. I go to my OB/GYN, they put me on

another birth control. I've had to be on probably four

different birth controls in the past three years. The

first thing that has helped me was the passion behind my

esthetician to go with a more holistic approach and not

just fill me with medications and pills. She has taken

the time to assess my skin and give me an opportunity to

actually feel beautiful in my skin, and I feel that

estheticians are more passionate towards those issues

than what a doctor can be sometimes, and I'm not saying

doctors aren't passionate about that stuff, but you go to

the medical field and a lot of times it's money driven.

Estheticians, they are passionate about results, they

want you to feel beautiful in your skin.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

And skin takes a huge toll on mental

health, and I have totally been a victim of that, and I

am proud to say that I am the most confident I've ever

been because of the help that my esthetician has put into

my skin, and it would break my heart to think that girls

put in, get that help from their esthetician.

MS. MARKS: Thank you. Are there any

other comments at this time? (No response.)

If there are no further comments, I

declare the hearing closed. The record will remain open

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

49

1

2

until 5:00 p.m. today for any comments you may wish to

share about the proposed rules by mail or email. Thank

you for attending. We are off the record.

(Public hearing concluded at about 10:29 a.m.

- - -

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com

50

1 STATE OF MICHIGAN )

)

2 COUNTY OF MACOMB )

3

I, Lori Anne Penn, certify that this

4 transcript, consisting of 50 pages, is a complete, true, and

5 correct record, to the best of my ability, of the captioned

6 matters held on Tuesday, May 2, 2023.

7

8

I further certify that I am not

responsible for any copies of this transcript not made

under my direction or control and bearing my original

signature.

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

I also certify that I am not a relative

or employee of or an attorney for a party; or a relative

or employee of an attorney for a party; or financially

interested in the action.

May 7, 2023

_________________ ______________________________________

Date

Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315

Notary Public, Macomb County, Michigan

My Commission Expires June 15, 2025

Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com