Hearing  
05/24/2023  
ยท
ยท1ยท ยท ยท ยทHCS Rules Update 2023  
ยท2ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทPublic Hearing  
ยท3ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท May 24, 2023  
ยท4ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท 1:30 p.m.  
ยท5  
ยท6  
ยท7ยท ยทWorker's Disability Comp Agency  
ยท8ยท ยท ยท ยท2501 Woodlake Circle  
ยท9ยท ยท ยท Okemos, Michigan 48864  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
YVer1f  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
Page 2  
ยท1ยท ยทWednesday, May 24, 2023  
ยท2ยท ยทAt or about 1:30 p.m.  
ยท3ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. NOLISH:ยท Okay.ยท We are opening the  
ยท4ยท ยทPublic Hearing on the Health Care Services Rules.  
ยท5ยท ยทToday is May 24th, 2023.ยท This hearing was  
ยท6ยท ยทscheduled for 1:30 p.m.ยท It is now 1:35 p.m.ยท We  
ยท7ยท ยทhave no signed-in guests appearing here today.ยท My  
ยท8ยท ยทname is Jack Nolish.ยท I'm Director of the Workers'  
ยท9ยท ยทDisability Compensation Agency and I will be  
10ยท ยทfacilitating the hearing today.  
11ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท For the record, this is a public  
12ยท ยทhearing on proposed administrative rules entitled,  
13ยท ยท"Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity,  
14ยท ยทWorkers' Disability Compensation Agency  
15ยท ยทAdministrative Rules for Workers' Compensation  
16ยท ยทHealth Care Services, also known as HCS."ยท This  
17ยท ยทhearing is being conducted pursuant to provisions  
18ยท ยทof Sections 205 and 315 of the Worker's Disability  
19ยท ยทCompensation Act of 1969, Public Act 1969 Number  
20ยท ยท317, also know as MCL 408.205 and 418.315, Section  
21ยท ยท33 of the Administrative Procedures Act of 1969  
22ยท ยทwhich is 1969 PA 306, MCL 24.233, and Executive  
23ยท ยทReorganization Order Numbers 1982-2, 1986-3,  
24ยท ยท1990-1, 1996-2, 2003-1, 2011-4, and 2019-13, also  
25ยท ยทidentified as MCL 18.24, 418.1, 418.2, 445.2001,  
YVer1f  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
Page 3  
ยท1ยท ยท445.2011, 445.2030, and 125.1998.  
ยท2ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท This hearing, as I said previously, was  
ยท3ยท ยทcalled to order at 1:36 at the Worker's Disability  
ยท4ยท ยทCompensation Agency Claims Conference Room 2501  
ยท5ยท ยทWoodlake Circle, Okemos, Michigan.ยท This hearing  
ยท6ยท ยทwas appropriately published in three newspapers of  
ยท7ยท ยทgeneral circulation, as well as the Michigan  
ยท8ยท ยทRegister, Issue #7-2023, published on May 1st of  
ยท9ยท ยท2023.  
10ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท For the record, we are here today to  
11ยท ยทreceive comments on the proposed rules.ยท Anyone  
12ยท ยทwishing to speak, please make sure you've signed  
13ยท ยทin and indicated your willingness to speak.ยท We  
14ยท ยทwill call on speakers in the order in which names  
15ยท ยทare listed on the sign-in sheet.ยท When you come  
16ยท ยทforward to speak, please identify yourself with  
17ยท ยทyour name, the organization you represent, and  
18ยท ยทboth your mailing and email address so that this  
19ยท ยทinformation may be transcribed into the hearing  
20ยท ยทreport.ยท Pursuant to Attorney General Opinion  
21ยท ยท#5183, issued March 8th, 1977, we will limit the  
22ยท ยทtime for each presentation to ten minutes.ยท If you  
23ยท ยทhave additional comments to submit in writing, you  
24ยท ยทmay leave them at the registration desk or submit  
25ยท ยทthem to our Department no later than 5:00 today  
YVer1f  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
Page 4  
ยท1ยท ยทEastern Daylight Time.  
ยท2ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Are there anyone here -- anyone here  
ยท3ยท ยทpresent interested in speaking or presenting any  
ยท4ยท ยทinformation?ยท For the record, prior to the  
ยท5ยท ยทcommencement of this hearing we have received five  
ยท6ยท ยทwritten communications, one from OPTUM, O-P-T-U-M,  
ยท7ยท ยทdated May 24th, 2023 signed by Adam Fowler,  
ยท8ยท ยทManager of Public Policy & Regulatory Affairs.  
ยท9ยท ยทThe second is from AAPAN dated also May 24th, 2023  
10ยท ยทsigned by Julian Roberts, President and CEO  
11ยท ยทAmerican Association of Payers, Administrators and  
12ยท ยทNetworks using the initials AAPAN.ยท The next is  
13ยท ยทfrom the HealtheSystems dated May 19th, 2023  
14ยท ยทsigned by Tiffany Grzybowski, Analyst, Advocacy  
15ยท ยทand Compliance from HealtheSystems.ยท Next from  
16ยท ยทAPTA, American Physical Therapy Association, a  
17ยท ยทletter dated May 24th signed by Edward Mathis, PT,  
18ยท ยทDPT, the president of the organization.ยท And last  
19ยท ยทbut not least, APTQI, the Alliance for Physical  
20ยท ยทTherapy, Quality and Innovation, dated May 24th,  
21ยท ยท2020, three signed by Nikesh Patel, PT, DPT.  
22ยท ยทThese letters are both some are in support, some  
23ยท ยทare in opposition.  
24ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท It is now 1:40.ยท We'll keep the record  
25ยท ยทopen for an additional five minutes to see if  
YVer1f  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
Page 5  
ยท1ยท ยทanyone wishes to appear and testify.ยท So, we are  
ยท2ยท ยทadjourned until then.  
ยท3ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท(Whereupon a brief pause was  
ยท4ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท Held in the proceeding)  
ยท5ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท MR. NOLISH:ยท We're back on the record  
ยท6ยท ยทin the Public Hearing regarding the Health Care  
ยท7ยท ยทServices Rules.ยท It is now 1:46 p.m.ยท No one has  
ยท8ยท ยทcome forward to testify or present any other  
ยท9ยท ยทdocumentation.ยท We are, therefore, going to close  
10ยท ยทthe hearing at this time.ยท If anyone is interested  
11ยท ยทin submitting documentation letters or other  
12ยท ยทinformation, they may do so by the close of  
13ยท ยทbusiness today at 5:00.ยท It can be emailed to my  
14ยท ยทassistant, Deb Outwater at outwaterd@michigan.gov.  
15ยท ยทIt can also be delivered to the Worker's  
16ยท ยทDisability Compensation Agency, 2501 Woodlake  
17ยท ยทCircle, Okemos, Michigan, 48864.ยท And the record  
18ยท ยทwill remain open until 5:00 to receive  
19ยท ยทdocumentation, but, other than that, this hearing  
20ยท ยทis closed.ยท The current time is 1:47.  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
Page 6  
ยท1ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY  
ยท2  
ยท3ยท ยทSTATE OF MICHIGANยท )  
ยท4ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท )ยท SS  
ยท5ยท ยทCOUNTY OF JACKSONยท )  
ยท6  
ยท7ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท I, Melinda R. Womack, Certified  
ยท8ยท ยทShorthand Reporter, a Notary Public in and for the  
ยท9ยท ยทabove county and state, do hereby certify that the  
10ยท ยทabove deposition was taken before me at the time and  
11ยท ยทplace hereinbefore set forth; that the witness was by  
12ยท ยทme first duly sworn to testify to the truth, and  
13ยท ยทnothing but the truth, that the foregoing questions  
14ยท ยทasked and answers made by the witness were duly  
15ยท ยทrecorded by me stenographically and reduced to  
16ยท ยทcomputer transcription; that this is a true, full and  
17ยท ยทcorrect transcript of my stenographic notes so taken;  
18ยท ยทand that I am not related to, nor of counsel to either  
19ยท ยทparty nor interested in the event of this cause.  
20  
21ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท___________________________  
22ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทMelinda R. Womack, CSR-3611  
23ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทNotary Public,  
24ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยท ยทJackson County, Michigan  
25ยท ยท ยท ยทMy Commission expires:ยท 06-22-2025  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
ยท1  
Agency 2:9,14 3:4 5:16  
Alliance 4:19  
#
1
3
#5183 3:21  
#7-2023 3:8  
306 2:22  
American 4:11,16  
Analyst 4:14  
315 2:18  
317 2:20  
33 2:21  
appearing 2:7  
appropriately 3:6  
APTA 4:16  
125.1998 3:1  
18.24 2:25  
4
APTQI 4:19  
1969 2:19,21,22  
1977 3:21  
1982-2 2:23  
1986-3 2:23  
1990-1 2:24  
1996-2 2:24  
19th 4:13  
1:30 2:2,6  
1:35 2:6  
408.205 2:20  
418.1 2:25  
assistant 5:14  
Association 4:11,16  
Attorney 3:20  
418.2 2:25  
418.315 2:20  
445.2001 2:25  
445.2011 3:1  
445.2030 3:1  
48864 5:17  
B
back 5:5  
business 5:13  
C
5
1:36 3:3  
call 3:14  
1:40 4:24  
1:46 5:7  
5:00 3:25 5:13,18  
called 3:3  
Care 2:4,16 5:6  
CEO 4:10  
8
1:47 5:20  
1st 3:8  
8th 3:21  
Circle 3:5 5:17  
circulation 3:7  
Claims 3:4  
2
A
2003-1 2:24  
2011-4 2:24  
2019-13 2:24  
2020 4:21  
AAPAN 4:9,12  
Act 2:19,21  
close 5:9,12  
closed 5:20  
commencement 4:5  
comments 3:11,23  
communications 4:6  
Adam 4:7  
additional 3:23 4:25  
address 3:18  
2023 2:1,5 3:9 4:7,9,13  
205 2:18  
Compensation 2:9,14,15,19  
3:4 5:16  
adjourned 5:2  
administrative 2:12,15,21  
Administrators 4:11  
Advocacy 4:14  
Affairs 4:8  
24 2:1  
Compliance 4:15  
conducted 2:17  
Conference 3:4  
24.233 2:22  
24th 2:5 4:7,9,17,20  
2501 3:4 5:16  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
ยท2  
current 5:20  
Manager 4:8  
H
March 3:21  
D
HCS 2:16  
Mathis 4:17  
dated 4:7,9,13,17,20  
Daylight 4:1  
Health 2:4,16 5:6  
MCL 2:20,22,25  
Michigan 3:5,7 5:17  
minutes 3:22 4:25  
Healthesystems 4:13,15  
Deb 5:14  
hearing 2:4,5,10,12,17 3:2,5,  
19 4:5 5:6,10,19  
delivered 5:15  
N
Held 5:4  
Department 2:13 3:25  
desk 3:24  
names 3:14  
I
Director 2:8  
Networks 4:12  
newspapers 3:6  
Nikesh 4:21  
identified 2:25  
identify 3:16  
Disability 2:9,14,18 3:3 5:16  
documentation 5:9,11,19  
DPT 4:18,21  
information 3:19 4:4 5:12  
initials 4:12  
Nolish 2:3,8 5:5  
Number 2:19  
Numbers 2:23  
E
Innovation 4:20  
interested 4:3 5:10  
Issue 3:8  
Eastern 4:1  
O
Economic 2:13  
Edward 4:17  
email 3:18  
issued 3:21  
O-P-T-U-M 4:6  
Okemos 3:5 5:17  
open 4:25 5:18  
opening 2:3  
J
emailed 5:13  
entitled 2:12  
Executive 2:22  
Jack 2:8  
Julian 4:10  
Opinion 3:20  
Opportunity 2:13  
opposition 4:23  
OPTUM 4:6  
L
F
Labor 2:13  
leave 3:24  
letter 4:17  
letters 4:22 5:11  
limit 3:21  
facilitating 2:10  
forward 3:16 5:8  
Fowler 4:7  
order 2:23 3:3,14  
organization 3:17 4:18  
Outwater 5:14  
G
outwaterd@michigan.gov.  
listed 3:15  
5:14  
general 3:7,20  
Grzybowski 4:14  
guests 2:7  
M
P
mailing 3:18  
make 3:12  
p.m. 2:2,6 5:7  
PA 2:22  
Hearing  
05/24/2023  
ยท3  
Patel 4:21  
Roberts 4:10  
Woodlake 3:5 5:16  
Worker's 2:18 3:3 5:15  
Workers' 2:8,14,15  
writing 3:23  
pause 5:3  
Room 3:4  
Payers 4:11  
rules 2:4,12,15 3:11 5:7  
Physical 4:16,19  
Policy 4:8  
S
written 4:6  
present 4:3 5:8  
presentation 3:22  
presenting 4:3  
president 4:10,18  
previously 3:2  
prior 4:4  
scheduled 2:6  
Section 2:20  
Sections 2:18  
Services 2:4,16 5:7  
sheet 3:15  
sign-in 3:15  
Procedures 2:21  
proceeding 5:4  
proposed 2:12 3:11  
provisions 2:17  
PT 4:17,21  
signed 3:12 4:7,10,14,17,21  
signed-in 2:7  
speak 3:12,13,16  
speakers 3:14  
speaking 4:3  
public 2:4,11,19 4:8 5:6  
published 3:6,8  
pursuant 2:17 3:20  
submit 3:23,24  
submitting 5:11  
support 4:22  
Q
T
Quality 4:20  
ten 3:22  
testify 5:1,8  
R
Therapy 4:16,20  
Tiffany 4:14  
receive 3:11 5:18  
received 4:5  
time 3:22 4:1 5:10,20  
today 2:5,7,10 3:10,25 5:13  
transcribed 3:19  
record 2:11 3:10 4:4,24 5:5,17  
Register 3:8  
registration 3:24  
Regulatory 4:8  
remain 5:18  
W
Wednesday 2:1  
willingness 3:13  
wishes 5:1  
Reorganization 2:23  
report 3:20  
represent 3:17  
wishing 3:12  
;