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STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS  
BUREAU OF CONSTRUCTION CODES  
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PUBLIC HEARING  
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FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 8, 2023  
AT ABOUT 9:00 A.M.  
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MICHIGAN LIBRARY & HISTORICAL CENTER  
FIRST FLOOR FORUM  
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702 W. KALAMAZOO STREET  
LANSING, MICHIGAN  
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RE: Administrative Rules for Construction Codes  
Part 7 - Plumbing Code - Rule Set 2022-56  
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HEARING FACILITATOR:  
TONY WILLIAMSON  
Administrative Code and Rules Analyst  
Bureau of Construction Codes  
Department of Licensing & Regulatory Affairs  
611 W. Ottawa  
Lansing, Michigan 48993  
Williamsont5@michigan.gov  
ALSO PRESENT: Tracie Pack  
Matthew Hohman  
25 REPORTED BY: Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315  
Penn Reporting, LLC - lori.penn@yahoo.com  
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I N D E X  
2 Opening Statement - Tony Williamson  
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4 COMMENTS:  
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Dave Watson  
William Hordyk  
Ken Johnson  
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Larry D'Ascenzo  
Kevin Roby  
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William Grayzar  
Scott Hamilton  
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13 Closing Statement - Tony Williamson  
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Lansing, Michigan  
Friday, September 8, 2023  
At 9:04 a.m.  
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(Public hearing commences pursuant to due notice.)  
MR. WILLIAMSON: Good morning. My name  
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is Tony Williamson, I am a Department Analyst for the  
Bureau of Construction Codes in the Department of  
Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, and I will be  
conducting the hearing today.  
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This is a public hearing on proposed  
Administrative Rules entitled "Part 7 Plumbing Code -  
Rule Set 2022-56". We are conducting this hearing under  
the authority of the Administrative Procedures Act,  
Public Act 306 of 1969, on behalf of the Department of  
Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Construction  
Codes.  
We are calling this hearing to order at  
9:06 a.m. on September 8, 2023, at the Michigan Library &  
Historical Center, First Floor Forum, 702 West Kalamazoo  
Street, Lansing, Michigan 48915. Notice of public  
hearing was published in the Michigan Register, Issue  
#15-2023, on September 1, 2023, and in the following  
newspapers of general circulation: The Morning Sun and  
the Oakland Press on August 4, 2023, and the Mining  
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Journal on August 9, 2023.  
Please know, we are here today to receive  
comments or suggestions on the proposed rules. Please  
make sure that they relate directly to the proposed rules  
and the reasons why the changes would be in the public  
interest. If you wish to speak, make sure you have  
signed in and indicated that you wish to speak. We will  
call on speakers in the order in which names are listed  
on the sign-in sheet. Each speaker is limited to three  
minutes and only allowed one time to speak during the  
public hearing. For those making comments today, please  
clearly state and spell your name slowly for the record,  
and if you are speaking on behalf an organization, please  
identify that organization as well.  
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If you have already submitted comments to  
the Department in writing or by email, those comments  
will be considered in the same manner as the comments  
made during the public hearing today. If you have  
written comments, you may submit them directly to me.  
The Department will also accept written comments  
postmarked or emailed until 9/15/2023 at 5:00 p.m.  
We'll now call the first public member.  
Dave Watson.  
MR. WATSON: Yes. I've already submitted  
my comments in advance, so you have them on record. My  
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name is Dave Watson, as I've signed in. I represent Dave  
Watson Associates, manufacturers' representatives  
(inaudible) --  
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COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry.  
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Manufacturers representatives?  
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MR. WATSON: Manufacturers'  
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representative in the plumbing industry, yes, ma'am. As  
I say, I've already submitted my comments, so I won't go  
long, but they boil down to this. I do believe new  
standards that were introduced in the International  
Plumbing Code are being misapplied, and I've already  
submitted the reasons for my belief.  
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I did want to speak publicly, though, to  
say this, is that I would encourage the Bureau, if  
possible, to return to the old ways where they -- a  
plumbing rules committee was appointed to study these  
rules; the committees would consist of engineers,  
inspectors, labor, management, all the stakeholders in  
the industry, and with a number of eyes on these code  
changes, any errors, concerns, could be addressed at a  
committee level. I don't mean this to be derogatory of  
the plumbing chief or the chairman of the plumbing board,  
but they're very talented individuals, but they don't  
have the depth, and of course they have day jobs. So as  
I say, I would -- that's my public comment is I would  
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encourage the return to appointments of plumbing rules  
committees to study these changes in more detail, and if  
that were to happen, I do believe you wouldn't have the  
comments that you're going to have today. So that's my  
comment for today. Thank you.  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. Now calling  
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Bill Hordyk.  
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MR. HORDYK: Good morning. My name is  
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William Hordyk, H-o-r-d-y-k. I'm a registered building  
official in the State of Michigan serving the community  
the Grand Rapids, and I also hold 20 national  
certifications with the International Code Council,  
including that of Master Code Professional. I'm here  
today on behalf of the Metro Building Inspectors  
Association of Greater Grand Rapids, a group of over 130  
registered building officials and inspectors performing  
their duties for over 70 delegated authorities in the  
State of Michigan.  
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As I had ran out of time on my last  
hearing for the Mechanical Code, I will be submitting all  
of my, the interest I have in modifying the proposed  
rules by paper, but I did want to speak specifically on a  
couple comments that I noticed in there. We're concerned  
about the proposed rules for the 2021 Plumbing Code. We  
believe there were insufficient effort to put forth in  
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reviewing the existing Administrative Rules in the  
context of the 2021 Code.  
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Specifically, we found that multiple  
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existing rules reference code sections that did not exist  
in the 2021 Code, the Model Code. There are multiple  
rules that are unassociated, that reference unassociated  
code sections where the Model Code has changed the  
numbering but the Administrative Rules have not changed  
the numbering, so there's a discongruity between those.  
And there are some rules that propose the exact language  
of the 2021 Model Code.  
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We're concerned that -- we're also  
concerned about the Bureau's apparent intent to strike  
Model Code language that has existed from the conception  
of the (inaudible) --  
COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. That has  
existed from the --  
MR. HORDYK: -- from the conception of  
the Stille-DeRossett-Hale Single State Construction Act.  
The language has not changed from the codes available at  
that time, but are now being deemed to contradict with  
the Act. We believe it should not be -- the Bureau  
should not be in the business of overruling the rule of  
the legislators. If the writers of Public Act 230  
objected to the language available to them when crafting  
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the legislation that adopted the Model Codes, they would  
have written such language out within the Act.  
Finally, we are concerned about the  
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instances where the new Administrative Rules are  
proposing the exacting language of 2021 Model  
International Plumbing Code. As Rule 701 proposes to  
adopt the 2021 International Plumbing Code, we see no  
reason for additional rules to specifically adopt  
individual sections of the Model Code that only allow for  
underlying errors in future sections as those rules  
aren't reviewed when the Model Code changes. I'll submit  
my paper comments by the deadline.  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you.  
COURT REPORTER: Can we turn that mic on?  
(Pause to adjust room microphone.)  
MR. WILLIAMSON: Ken Johnson.  
MS. JOHNSON: Good morning. My name is  
Ken Johnson, and I am a licensed master plumber, I've  
been in the industry for 40 years. I am here to oppose  
the Part 7 rule changes of backflow testing. I test  
anywheres from 3,000 to 4,000 of these assemblies a year,  
my failure rate is 30-35 percent. To eliminate the idea  
of testing only when they're installed or moved is not in  
the interest of public safety. I don't have much more to  
say to that except I'm hoping that you guys can  
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understand what I'm trying to say and make amendment to  
this to where we test annually like we do now. That's  
all I got for you. Thank you.  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. Larry  
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D'Ascenzo.  
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MR. D'ASCENZO: Good morning. Thank you  
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for the opportunity to speak to you today. My name is  
Larry D'Ascenzo, it's D-apostrophe-A-s-c-e-n-z-o, I'm  
speaking on behalf of my company, Guardian Plumbing and  
Heating. We are a commercial plumbing contractor working  
primarily in healthcare buildings throughout the Metro  
Detroit region.  
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I'd like to address this section of the  
proposed amendments: Specifically, the 2018 edition of  
the Michigan Plumbing Code which is currently in effect  
requires backflow preventers to be tested annually. This  
reflects the language of the Code's source, which is the  
2018 International Plumbing Code. The 2021 edition of  
the International Plumbing Code, which is again the  
source for the Michigan Plumbing Code, continues to show  
that backflow preventers are required to be tested at  
least annually; however, on page 4 of the proposed  
amendment changes, the proposed language reads, and I  
quote, "... backflow preventers shall be tested at the  
time of installation, immediately after repairs or at the  
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time of relocation." The language that requires backflow  
preventers to be tested at least annually has been  
omitted.  
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My company tests and certifies thousands  
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of backflow assemblies annually with a failure rate that  
hovers in the 20-percent range. When these assemblies  
fail, they are exposing water users in the building and  
the community at large to potential contamination of  
their water supply. Unsuspecting officworkers could be  
ingesting boiler chemicals when they take a drink from  
watercoolers. In fact, this very scenario happened in  
one of the buildings that my company works in, although  
workers noticed that their water tasted funny.  
My company services backflow preventers  
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on everything from boilers to dialysis systems to  
glycol-filled fire suppression systems. To think that  
the State of Michigan with its dedication to safe  
drinking water would consider it acceptable for boiler  
chemicals or glycol to potentially enter the potable  
water system is unthinkable.  
That being said, there can only be one of  
two reasons for the omission of the annual testing  
requirement in the proposed code changes: (1) it was  
omitted by mistake, or (2) it was omitted by design. If  
in fact it was omitted by mistake, the remedy is simple;  
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restore the language to match that of its parent  
document, the 2021 International Plumbing Code. If it  
was by design and the Code change is permitted to pass as  
proposed, it would be a major setback to the cause of  
safe water in the State of Michigan. Water purveyors  
throughout the State are required to ensure the water is  
delivered safely to the furthest tap.  
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I strongly oppose the proposed change and  
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encourage you to restore the language from the previous  
Code. I thank you for the opportunity.  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, sir. Kevin  
Roby.  
MR. ROBY: Good morning. My name is  
Kevin Roby, and I represent the City of Novi, Department  
of Public Works, Water and Sewer Division, and I'm a  
cross-connection specialist for the City of Novi.  
Page 4, Rule 725h Testing, backflow  
preventers. I oppose this Code change due to the removal  
of testing it at least annually. As a water purveyor, we  
are required to provide safe drinking water to the tap,  
and a huge component of that is testing backflow  
preventers, inspecting buildings, inspecting and  
evaluating plumbing systems. This Code change  
contradicts Section 102.3 Maintenance in the Code that  
requires both existing and new plumbing systems to be  
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proper operating condition. The way to do that is to  
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test them, and a departure from the annual testing has a  
direct negative impact on the health, safety, and welfare  
of the public. These assemblies are mechanical in nature  
and subject to failure, and they do fail. Testing  
programs throughout the State have documented failed test  
results throughout the State and in fact across the  
country.  
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According to the ICC website, 2021  
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edition of the International Plumbing Code, annual  
testing is required. These assemblies isolate cooling  
towers, boilers, fire protection glycol systems, dental  
equipment, a large part of it is high hazard in nature,  
and it certainly is a step backwards from protecting the  
health, safety, and welfare of the public.  
And all of these assemblies when they  
fail, it's not noticeable that they failed. The only way  
you need to -- you need to verify that or confirm that is  
to test them. You have -- you can have assemblies that  
go on for a couple years based on EGLE's testing protocol  
and they can be failed, not protecting our water supply,  
and it's, it needs to be changed and we oppose it.  
I oppose the same section on page 3, Rule  
726 Inspections. It needs to be done annually.  
And one last Code section is the page 6,  
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Rule 727a, water meters. We need valves on each side of  
a water meter. We've got water meters that are up in  
ceilings where there's a valve on the downstream side,  
and we can't fix them. Thank you.  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, sir.  
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MR. ROBY: Can I submit these to you?  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes. William Grayzar.  
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MR. GRAYZAR: Thank you. My name is  
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William Grayzar, it's G-r-a-y-z-a-r. I'm here on behalf  
of Code Study Development Group of Southeastern Michigan  
and on behalf of myself. We have previously submitted  
Code changes from the Code Study, and I have some  
additional changes that I am presenting myself.  
First of all, I agree with my  
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predecessors, that the backflow prevention annual testing  
needs to remain in the Code. I don't need to go further  
into that, they've delved on that pretty well, but that  
does need to remain in the Code.  
I'm looking at another health and safety  
issue, and that is under Section 727c where we list  
emergency eye wash and tepid water limits. That is our  
add to the Code, and by the ASSE 1071, that does not  
belong in this section of the Code, this is for tempered  
water -- tepid water. Tepid is different, tepid water is  
used on emergency fixtures. That addition to the Code is  
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the only change that's different from the ICC, and I  
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believe that should be removed. It's already covered  
elsewhere in the Code. And that also would take away the  
reference in Section, it's 411.3, referencing back, and  
that would also match the ICC and neither of one those  
would be needed. That's my first one.  
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Secondly, for a long time in the Code  
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there's been a discrepancy on the requirement between  
cleanouts in manholes. In the sanitary section, it  
requires manholes for eight-inch pipe and larger, and in  
the storm section, it's ten-inch pipe and larger. We  
need to get those resolved. The Code Study has three  
changes in for your review, any one of those is  
acceptable. One would put it to the eight-inch to match  
the ICC, one puts it to ten-inch and puts in Code changes  
for that, and the other one just modifies what we have  
now so that they're consistent.  
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I have another change in that's just  
editorial. There's many links that are broken in the  
2018 Code, as many of you know. What they did in the  
International Code, they renumbered the sections in the  
fixture section to be alphabetical and the Code  
references were not updated.  
Lastly, I have a change that's a cross-  
connection that I do not believe belongs in the  
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Commercial Code, it's acceptable in the Residential Code,  
but it is the end-of-use water recirculation systems.  
They are in the International Code, I plan to argue that  
point there, and they're in this Code. The problem is  
they allow the cold water line to serve as a recirc line,  
and there's two problems with that; it raises the  
temperature of the cold water line into the Legionella  
area, and the cold water is not protected like hot water  
for Legionella, you've got problems there, and it's a  
direct cross-connection between the hot and cold water  
systems in a building. Like I said, residence, it's  
okay, but in a commercial building where you have  
multiple tenants, this could lead to an elevated high  
temperature limit and added scalding. And in addition,  
the 1070 devices that are required to protect public  
safety require a maximum to have 80-degree water to  
supply to those fixtures. Thanks you.  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. Now calling  
our last speaker, Scott Hamilton.  
MR. HAMILTON: Good morning. I'm Scott  
Hamilton, H-a-m-i-l-t-o-n, senior director at ASSE  
International representing ASSE International Code  
Committee.  
I have submitted in writing, it's posted  
on the site, but I just want to emphasize the importance  
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of a couple of our standards that we have developed  
through the industry using subject matter experts  
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regarding ASSE 1082, 1084, both allowing water heaters to  
do the part of what typically the 1017 and 1070 mixing  
valves would do. Both of them are great standards, went  
through the ANSI process, and when used in the correct  
application according to the scope and purpose will  
protect the end users like they say they will. But  
there's a misapplication in there thinking that the 1082  
and 1084 are similar. The difference between the two,  
and the standards have been submitted for your review,  
the difference between the two, 1082 is similar to the  
1017, it will modulate the temperature in the hot water  
distribution system, it is not intended to control the  
temperature at point of use, that is the 1084. The 1084  
heater is going through a special testing, Section 3.3,  
to ensure that if any fluctuation takes place with those  
heaters, they not produce water above 120. The 1082  
heater will produce water above 120, and it could lead to  
scalding to the end user. So we want to make sure, and  
we have a series of them on your site, so where the  
misapplication took place, so we just wanted to emphasize  
that again, both great standards when used in the correct  
application to their sole intent and purpose.  
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As far at the backflow annual testing,  
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again, we developed the standards for the backflow, we  
used industry experts, which include the manufacturers,  
and all of them will say that they use mechanical parts.  
Mechanical parts fail over time, they need to be tested  
annually. All of the Model Codes throughout the country  
require the testing annually, along with everything else  
that you have in the Code. So thank you.  
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MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you. If there are  
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no other further comments at this time, I hereby declare  
this hearing closed. The record will remain open until  
today at 5:00 p.m. for any other comments you may wish to  
share about the proposed rules. Thank you for attending.  
(Public hearing concluded at 9:27 a.m.)  
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1 STATE OF MICHIGAN )  
)
2 COUNTY OF MACOMB )  
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I, Lori Anne Penn, certify that this  
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transcript consisting of 18 pages is a complete, true,  
and correct record of the Public Hearing held in the  
captioned matter on Friday, September 8, 2023.  
I further certify that I am not  
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responsible for any copies of this transcript not made  
under my direction or control and bearing my original  
signature.  
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I also certify that I am not a relative  
or employee of or an attorney for a party; or a relative  
or employee of an attorney for a party; or financially  
interested in the action.  
September 13, 2023  
_________________ ____  
Date  
Lo
Noan  
My Commission Expires June 15, 2025  
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