PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · STATE OF MICHIGAN

·2· · · · · ·DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS

·3· · · · · · · · · · BUREAU OF CONSTRUCTION CODES

·4

·5· ·In the Matter of:

·6· ·PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE -

·7· ·RULE SET 2022-59 LR

·8· ·________________________/

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11· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PUBLIC HEARING

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14· · · · · · · · Michigan Library & Historical Center

15· · · · · · · · · · · ·702 W. Kalamazoo Street

16· · · · · · · · · · · · · Lansing, Michigan

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18· · · · · · · · · · Thursday, September 21, 2023

19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 9:02 a.m.

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· ·APPEARANCES:

·2

·3· ·BUREAU OF CONSTRUCTION CODE MEMBERS:

·4· · · · · · ·Mr. Tony Williamson

·5· · · · · · ·Ms. Tracie Pack

·6· · · · · · ·Mr. Lance Ash

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·9· ·RECORDED BY:

10· · · · · · ·Karen L. Banks, CER 3592

11· · · · · · ·Certified Electronic Recorder

12· · · · · · ·Esquire Deposition Solutions, LLC

13· · · · · · ·Firm Registration Number 8035

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

3

·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · TABLE OF CONTENTS

·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE

·3· ·PUBLIC COMMENT:

·4· · · · Don Iveson· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5

·5· · · · Beau Burton· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7

·6· · · · John Danic· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 9

·7· · · · John Stoudt· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·9

·8· · · · Paul Kaiser· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 10

·9· · · · Scott Weaver· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10

10· · · · Dan Decker· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·11

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

4

·1· · · · · · ·Lansing, Michigan

·2· · · · · · ·Thursday, September 21, 2023 - 9:02 a.m.

·3· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Good morning.· My name is Tony

·4· ·Williamson.· I am a departmental analyst for the Bureau

·5· ·of Construction Codes in the Department of Licensing and

·6· ·Regulatory Affairs, and I will be conducting the hearing

·7· ·today.

·8· · · · · · ·This is a public hearing on proposed

·9· ·administrative rules entitled "Part 8 Electrical Code,

10· ·Rule Set 2022-59 LR."· We are conducting this hearing

11· ·under the authority of the Administrative Procedures Act,

12· ·Public Act 306 of 1969, on behalf of the Department of

13· ·Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Construction

14· ·Codes.

15· · · · · · ·We are calling this hearing to order at nine

16· ·o'clock a.m. on September 21, 2023, at the Michigan

17· ·Library and Historical Center, First Floor Forum, 702

18· ·West Kalamazoo Street, Lansing, Michigan, 48915.· Notice

19· ·of public hearing was published in the Michigan Register,

20· ·Issue 16-2023, on September 15, 2023, and in the

21· ·following newspapers of general circulation:· The Morning

22· ·Sun and the Oakland Press on August 24, 2023, and the

23· ·Mining Journal on August 24, 2023.

24· · · · · · ·Please know that we are here today to receive

25· ·comments or suggestions on the proposed rules.· Please

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

5

·1· ·make sure that they relate directly to the proposed rules

·2· ·and reasons why the changes would be in the public

·3· ·interest.· If you wish to speak, make sure you have

·4· ·signed in and indicated that you wish to speak.· We will

·5· ·call on speakers in the order in which names are listed

·6· ·on the sign-in sheets.· Each speaker is limited to three

·7· ·minutes and only allowed one time to speak during the

·8· ·public hearing.· For those making comments today, please

·9· ·clearly state and spell your name slowly for the record.

10· ·And if you are speaking on behalf of an organization,

11· ·please identify that organization as well.

12· · · · · · ·If you have already submitted comments to the

13· ·Department in writing or by email, those comments will be

14· ·considered in the same manner as the comments made during

15· ·the public hearing today.· If you have written comments,

16· ·you may submit them directly to me.· The Department will

17· ·also accept written comments postmarked or emailed until

18· ·9/28/2023 at 5 p.m.

19· · · · · · ·Now I'll call Don Iveson.

20· · · · · · · · · · · · DON IVESON

21· · · · · · ·MR. IVESON:· Good morning, everyone.· I'm Don

22· ·Iveson, D-o-n, I-v-e-s-o-n.· I'm here today to speak in

23· ·support of the public Part 8 rules adopting the 2023 NEC.

24· ·I represent Schneider Electric.· I'm the manager of

25· ·industry codes and external relations for the North

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· ·American business.· I also hold a State of Michigan

·2· ·master's -- master license as well.

·3· · · · · · ·Schneider Electric continues to be an advocate

·4· ·for the timely adoption of the National Electric Code.

·5· ·The NEC focuses on the proper installation of electrical

·6· ·systems and equipment, supporting safe electrical

·7· ·infrastructure.· Our products are designed and

·8· ·manufactured to comply with the most current edition of

·9· ·the National Electric Code.

10· · · · · · ·Adopting the most current electrical code

11· ·enables us -- or, excuse me, enables the use of the most

12· ·advanced technology, which enables higher efficiencies,

13· ·supports business to be competitive in the global market.

14· ·The adoption of the 2023 NEC will permit the construction

15· ·industry to take advantage of the most cost-efficient

16· ·infrastructure solution and utilizing emergent

17· ·technologies and advancements, while enhancing safety in

18· ·all structures in the state.· A few of these emergent

19· ·technologies are including micro-grids, energy

20· ·management, and renewable energy sources.

21· · · · · · ·Again, I support the adoption of the '23 NEC

22· ·for electrical safety for all Michigan communities,

23· ·allowing their economic growth and their well-being.

24· ·Thank you very much.

25· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Thank you.

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

7

·1· · · · · · ·MS. PACK:· Thank you.

·2· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Beau Burton.

·3· · · · · · · · · · · · BEAU BURTON

·4· · · · · · ·MR. BURTON:· I'm Beau Burton, B-e-a-u,

·5· ·B-u-r-t-o-n.· I'm an instructor with the Metropolitan

·6· ·Detroit Electrical Industry Training Center.· We are an

·7· ·apprenticeship school for electricians in the state of

·8· ·Michigan.· We are owned and operated by the International

·9· ·Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, IBEW Local 58, as well

10· ·as the Southeast Chapter of National Electrical

11· ·Contractors -- Southeast Michigan Chapter of the National

12· ·Electrical Contractors Association.· All three of those

13· ·organizations have me here to show their support for this

14· ·code adoption process.

15· · · · · · ·I'd like to note that by adopting the 2023 code

16· ·book, we are not skipping the 2020 code book.· We will

17· ·inherently bring all of those changes from the 2020 into

18· ·the '23 adoption.

19· · · · · · ·When we look at the history here, we realize

20· ·Michigan is on the '17 code book and that was closed

21· ·for -- we adopted that on November 7, 2019.· That was

22· ·almost five years ago.· And then when we look at when the

23· ·changes for the '17 were shut down, you're going to go

24· ·back to September 7 of 2014.· That means we are using a

25· ·code book based on nine-year-old technology.· We are way

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· ·behind the times.· Coming up to new code will allow us to

·2· ·have the best technology and use it in a safe manner.

·3· · · · · · ·If you think about it, at that time we were

·4· ·using compact fluorescent lighting.· In 2014, GE,

·5· ·Phillips, they don't even make that product any more.

·6· ·It's gone.· Yet we're dealing with code from that era.

·7· ·We've had lots of technological advances in the last nine

·8· ·years.· Lighting, lighting control, electric vehicles,

·9· ·batteries, storage, micro-grids, just all kinds of

10· ·things.· Right now Michigan is investing a lot of money

11· ·into their state parks, and a lot of that has to do with

12· ·infrastructures for RVs and electrical distribution.

13· ·We're using a code book from nine years ago, and

14· ·technology-wise we're really probably not building the

15· ·best park infrastructure we could.· If we updated the

16· ·code, we would be there.

17· · · · · · ·Again, on behalf of the IBEW 58, Southeast

18· ·Chapter of MECA, we support these changes.· Also, we

19· ·support the change of the Part 8 rules to rescind the

20· ·language in the Michigan Residential Code, and then have

21· ·all of the industry working off of one code, the Michigan

22· ·Electrical Code.· Thank you.

23· · · · · · ·MS. PACK:· Thank you.

24· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Thank you.

25· · · · · · ·John Danic.

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · JOHN DANIC

·2· · · · · · ·MR. DANIC:· My name is John Danic, D-a-n-i-c,

·3· ·instructor at the Southeast Michigan Construction

·4· ·Academy, an accredited apprenticeship training program,

·5· ·and an active state-registered electrical inspector and

·6· ·code instructor.

·7· · · · · · ·I am hoping that the State will move forward

·8· ·with the update of the Michigan 2023 Electrical Code and

·9· ·the Part 8 rules to stay in pace with the changing

10· ·technologies, the rest of the nation, and the rest of the

11· ·nation's workforce so that we may instruct properly.

12· ·Thank you.

13· · · · · · ·MR. ASH:· Thank you.

14· · · · · · ·MS. PACK:· Thank you.

15· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Thank you.

16· · · · · · ·John Stoudt.

17· · · · · · · · · · · · JOHN STOUDT

18· · · · · · ·MR. STOUDT:· Hi.· I'm John Stoudt.· S-t-o-u-d-t

19· ·is the last name.· I'm a registered code official and

20· ·registered master electrician in the state of Michigan,

21· ·and I'm here to offer my support to adopt the '23 code

22· ·and the Part 8 rules, and also to keep up with the rest

23· ·of the nation.· And I also believe we should abolish the

24· ·MRC and stick to the NEC, because it's a better standard

25· ·for our public.· Thank you.

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

10

·1· · · · · · ·MS. PACK:· Thank you.

·2· · · · · · ·MR. ASH:· Thank you.

·3· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Thank you.

·4· · · · · · ·Paul Kaiser.

·5· · · · · · · · · · · · PAUL KAISER

·6· · · · · · ·MR. KAISER:· Good morning.· I'm Paul Kaiser.

·7· ·I'm principal application engineer for Schneider

·8· ·Electric.· I'm also on the -- serve on the advisory board

·9· ·for the IAEI, the inspectors association, and I've also

10· ·been an inspector/trainer for the IAEI.

11· · · · · · ·I'm here to also support the adoption of the

12· ·2023 code.· You know, as has been noted, all the changes

13· ·in technology in our electrical industry, it's important

14· ·that our code keeps up with all those changes so that we

15· ·can properly install, inspect and utilize the new

16· ·technologies that are available today that were not

17· ·available, you know, even three to five years ago.· So

18· ·keeping -- you know, having our version of the code in

19· ·pace with technology that's being installed and utilized

20· ·every day in the state of Michigan is very important to

21· ·our safety.· Thank you.

22· · · · · · ·MS. PACK:· Thank you.

23· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Thank you.

24· · · · · · ·Scott Weaver.

25· · · · · · · · · · · ·SCOTT WEAVER

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· · · · · · ·MR. WEAVER:· Good morning.· I'm Scott Weaver,

·2· ·W-e-a-v-e-r.· I'd just like to start out with that I'm an

·3· ·electrical contractor, I'm an electrical master, also

·4· ·electrical inspector.· I serve at LCC as an adjunct

·5· ·professor teaching code classes.· I serve on the IAEI.

·6· · · · · · ·And I would like to say that I support the

·7· ·rules as written and I think, as has been spoken before

·8· ·me, that I think this is going to narrow the gap on the

·9· ·technologies and the new things that are out there.· And

10· ·I'd just like to also mention it's become a very common

11· ·question that comes to our desk, is when will we adopt

12· ·the new code?· And that makes me believe that the

13· ·contractors and the electrical professionals in the

14· ·industry are hungry to get caught up with the rest of the

15· ·nation.· Thank you.

16· · · · · · ·MR. ASH:· Thank you.

17· · · · · · ·MS. PACK:· Thank you.

18· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Thank you.

19· · · · · · ·Don Decker.

20· · · · · · · · · · · · DAN DECKER

21· · · · · · ·MR. DECKER:· My name is Dan Decker, D-a-n,

22· ·D-e-c-k-e-r.· I represent the Burglar and Fire Alarm

23· ·Association of Michigan.

24· · · · · · ·We are supportive of the update to the 2023

25· ·National Electrical Code, but in reviewing the Part 8

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· ·rules, we believe we found a discrepancy between the

·2· ·state law and the administrative rules.· The Skilled

·3· ·Trades Regulation Act provides a number of exemptions

·4· ·from licensing, and Item K under Section -- it's 2016

·5· ·Public Act 407, Section 737, Subsection 3.· Subsection K

·6· ·under that exempts the installation, maintenance or

·7· ·servicing of security alarm systems in a building or

·8· ·structure.· As used in this subdivision, "security alarm

·9· ·systems" means that term as defined in Section 733(2)(c).

10· · · · · · ·In the proposed Part 8 rules, Rule 818, Section

11· ·80.19, subsection 4 is statute exemptions, and it says

12· ·installations that are referenced in Section 737,

13· ·subsection 3, and then it lists A, B, C, D, F, H, L and M

14· ·of the Skilled Trades Regulation Act are exempt from a

15· ·permit.· It looks like subsection K, which is included in

16· ·the law, was inadvertently left out of the subsection for

17· ·reference in the law, and so we would respectfully ask

18· ·that that be put in to be consistent with the law.

19· · · · · · ·I did some research on this and it was included

20· ·in the 2014 Part 8 rules, but it was -- this is

21· ·continuing an error, I believe, from the 2017 Part 8

22· ·rules.· Thank you.

23· · · · · · ·MR. ASH:· Thank you.

24· · · · · · ·MS. PACK:· Thank you.

25· · · · · · ·MR. WILLIAMSON:· Thank you.

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· · · · · · ·If there are no further comments at this time,

·2· ·I hereby declare this hearing closed.· The record will

·3· ·remain open until 9/28/2023 at 5 p.m. for any other

·4· ·comments you may wish to share about the proposed rules.

·5· ·Thank you for attending.

·6· · · · · · ·(Hearing concluded at 9:16 a.m.)

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PUBLIC· HEARING

IN RE: PART 8 ELECTRICAL CODE

September 21, 2023

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFICATE

·2· · · · · · ·I certify that this transcript, consisting of 14

·3· ·pages, is a complete, true, and correct record of the public

·4· ·hearing held in the foregoing matter on September 21, 2023.

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·7· ·Date:· September 27, 2023· · ·___________________________

·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Karen L. Banks, CER 3592

·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Notary Public, State of

10· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Michigan, County of Ionia

11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·My commission expires 7/20/2027

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