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STATE OF MICHIGAN  
MICHIGAN OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS AND RULES  
BUREAU OF PROFESSIONAL LICENSING  
-   -   -  
PUBLIC HEARING   
Friday, September 18, 2020  
9:00 a.m.  
-   -   -  
Held on-line via Zoom  
under Executive Order 2020-154  
-   -   -  
Re:  
 
Occupational Code - Disciplinary Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-23 LR)   
Occupational Therapy - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-28 LR)   
 
Real Estate Brokers and Salespersons - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2019-80 LR)   
 
HEARING FACILITATOR:  
     Dena Marks, Analyst  
     Bureau of Professional Licensing  
     611 West Ottawa Street  
     Lansing, Michigan  48909  
 
Also Present:   
 
     Andria Ditschman  
     Weston MacIntosh  
     LeAnn Payne  
     Kerry Przybylo  
 
Transcribed by:  Marie T. Schroeder, CSR-2183  
       Metro Court Reporters, Inc.  
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Lansing, Michigan  
 
Friday, September 18, 2020  
9:00 a.m.     
-   -   -  
DENA MARKS:  Good morning.  My name is  
Dena Marks, and I'm an analyst with the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing in the Department of Licensing and  
Regulatory Affairs.  I will be conducting the hearing  
today.  
This is a public hearing on proposed  
administrative rules entitled "Occupational Code -  
Disciplinary Rules," "Occupational Therapy - General  
Rules," and Real Estate Brokers and Salespersons -  
General Rules."  We are conducting the hearing as  
required by the Administrative Procedures Act to allow  
the public to comment on the proposed changes to these  
rule sets.  As with all other public hearings on draft  
rule sets, the only items to be discussed during this  
hearing will be the proposed changes to the rule sets.  
This hearing will not be covering any questions or  
discussions other than those issues.  
We are calling this hearing to order at  
9:00 a.m. on September 18, 2020, via Zoom under Executive  
Order 2020-154 in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.  The  
notice of public hearing was published in three  
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newspapers of general circulation, the grand Rapids Press  
and the Flint Journal on August 23, 2020, and the Mining  
Journal on September 2, 2020, as well as the Michigan  
Register, Issue 16-2020 published on September 15, 2020.  
All comments should relate directly to  
the proposed rules.  If you have questions about the  
rules, you may place your comments on the record and the  
Department will review and consider them.  If you have  
suggested changes to the proposed rules, please include  
the specific reasons why the changes would be in the  
public interest.  
We will take comments in the following  
manner:  For those using the video conference portion of  
the Zoom, not calling in on a telephone, please use the  
Raise Your Hand feature in Zoom.  I will call on  
individuals to speak and they will be unmuted at that  
time.  For participants that are available only by  
telephone, we will ask if you wish to make a comment  
after the video participants have finished.  If you have  
a comment but do not wish to speak, you may note --  
please note that the Department will also accept written  
statements e-mailed to BPL-boardsupport@Michigan.gov, or  
postmarked and mailed to the Bureau until 5:00 p.m.  
today.  
Those making comments should clearly and  
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slowly say and spell your name and advise if you are  
speaking on behalf of an organization.  We will limit  
comments to three minutes per person.  Please remember  
that only one person should speak at a time.  
The other department staff from the  
Bureau of Professional Licensing attending today are  
Andria Ditschman, Weston MacIntosh, LeAnn Payne, and  
Kerry Przybylo.  
Is there anyone who wishes to make  
comments on the Occupational Code - Disciplinary Rules?  
Again, if you are on audio only, we will get to you  
shortly.  Otherwise, if you could indicate that by using  
the Raise Your Hand feature.  (No response.)  
Is there anyone who would like to speak  
who is on audio only?  If so, hit *6 on your phone and  
that will unmute you so you may speak. (No response.)  
I'm not seeing anyone who wishes to  
comment on that rule set.  We'll move on to the next one.  
The next rule set we will take is  
comments on the Occupational Therapy - General Rules.  
Again if you are using the Zoom function, please Raise  
Your Hand.  (No response.)  If you are on audio only and  
wish to speak, please hit *6.  (No response.)  
I'm not seeing any comments regarding  
that rule set.  We will move on then to Real Estate  
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Brokers and Salespersons - General Rules.  If anyone  
would like to speak and use the Raise Your Hand function,  
please do so now.  (No response.)  
If anyone is on audio only and wishes to  
speak about that rule set, please hit *6 and you may make  
your comments.  (No response.)  
It doesn't appear that there are any  
persons who wishes to speak on those rules at this time.  
We will take a short recess to allow others to join this  
hearing.  We are currently in recess.  
(Brief recess was taken.)  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  I see that Bethany has  
her hand raised.  Oh, now she is lowering her hand.  
Bethany, did you have a comment to make?  
MS. BURGE:  Hello.  I just wondered if it  
is possible to ask a question or if it's just the time to  
make a comment?  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  You may ask a question.  
We can try and answer it, but this is the time to make  
comments about rules or suggested changes.  But go ahead  
and ask, we'll be happy to try and entertain it.  
MS. BURGE:  O.K.  I am an occupational  
therapist.  And in reviewing the updated rules, it  
appears that the English language requirement has been  
rescinded.  So I was just concerned that if English isn't  
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a requirement for our therapists in our state, that could  
present a challenge, especially for an older adult who  
perhaps have difficulties or aren't familiar with other  
primary proficiencies.  So I just am concerned that if  
the English language requirement is rescinded, that may  
create a barrier to proxies for some of our clients.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  Agreed.  And we did not  
rescind the rule completely.  We removed the rule to the  
Public Health Code - General Rules which apply to all  
health professions.  So we took it out of the individual  
professional administrative rules, occupational therapy,  
dentistry, medicine, social work.  We took it out of all  
of those and put it into one rule that applies to all  
professions so that it's uniformly enforced across the  
board, so that everybody has the same minimal standard  
which the Department is supposed to set.  
Those rules are in the promulgation  
process right now, and I expect that they will be made  
into, made into law in the next few weeks, I believe.  So  
we can't move your rule forward until that rule  
promulgates because we don't want to have a period of  
time where nobody has that requirement.  So yes, I  
totally understand your concern but it's still going to  
be a requirement for all health professionals.  
MS. BURGE:  O.K.  Thank you.  May I ask  
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one  more question?  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  Sure.  
MS. BURGE:  O.K.  I'm sorry, this is my  
first public hearing in reviewing the proposed changes.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  That's O.K.  
MS. BURGE:  So I wasn't quite sure how  
this works.  So my second question is related to  
continuing education requirements.  I notice that the  
live synchronous requirement has been slightly modified.  
So I just wanted to make sure just thinking about the age  
of COVID, I know this policy, you know, supersedes any  
pandemic.  However, I was just concerned about half of  
the credits being required for live synchronous, and if  
Zoom-based on -- I mean it's not exactly live, it's live  
but it's not in person -- if there is going to be some  
future consideration to moving continuing education  
requirements as we move forward into 2021 when someone  
starts to think about live continuing education credits.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  So you're wondering if  
there is going to be a policy or an executive order of  
some sort that would waive the in-person requirement?  Is  
that what you're asking?  
MS. BURGE:  Yes.  It looked as though --  
in the proposed rules it still has the in-person  
requirement.  A part of that -- I'm trying to scroll back  
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through it.  It still looked like it was partially  
rescinded.  So it said it must be completed live and in  
person, or the live synchronous context was removed.  I  
just want to make sure that doesn't present a problem for  
people renewing in 2021.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  Andria, you're muted.  
MS. DITSCHMAN:  I'm sorry.  I got it.  I  
work with the OT Board.  So we took out the using live  
synchronous contact because there was confusion as to  
what that meant.  So it does say live and in person.  So  
that is correct, that for the occupational therapy CE it  
is required to be in person.  
Now, I know that we don't know when an  
executive order will be changed or a new one will come  
out that allows for a change to that.  And so I mean if  
this were to go on long-term, there might be something  
that would come out saying that, you know, CE that is  
supposed to be in person can be done live.  
Kerry, is the current one for CE still in  
effect, do you know?    
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  I don't know.  I don't  
know.  
MS. DITSCHMAN:  I don't know either.  
There was one that allowed for continuing education to be  
waived.  I would have to look.    
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Bethany, I could check and get back to  
you.  I'll have to check on that and see if it's still in  
effect.  But right now, when these go into effect -- and  
these won't go into effect until, you know, we have the  
public hearing, then it goes back to a workgroup, and  
then it goes back to the Board, so it's going to be  
months before this is put into effect.  But right now, so  
it's a change in the language, but basically the  
synchronous was taken out because it seemed to be  
confusing.  Seemed to be, people weren't sure what that  
meant, live synchronous.  So now it says live and in  
person, it means yes, you have to have face-to-face.  
MS. BURGE:  O.K.  I was just thinking  
like for instance through Zoom you could be live and  
synchronous.  So that's why I was asking about the  
clarification, if that counted as in person.  But I  
totally recognize that the pandemic is a unique  
situation, and these rules are going to last longer  
hopefully than the pandemic will.  But I didn't know if  
there was a way to add language or something pending,  
executive orders, as a result of the pandemic should this  
last longer than, for instance, the next 12 to 24 months.  
MS. DITSCHMAN:  By executive order the  
Governor can override the rule and just allow that.  If  
you can send me an e-mail, I can respond with the  
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executive orders that were in effect.  But can I give you  
my e-mail address?  
MS. BURGE:  Sure.  What is it, please?  
MS. DITSCHMAN:  So it's  
Ditschmana@michigan.gov.  And you send me an e-mail, and  
then I'll send you the information that's been in effect  
so far.    
MS. BURGE:  O.K.  Thank you.  
(Email address repeated.)  
MS. DITSCHMAN:  You're welcome.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  And Bethany, since you  
have made comments, we need to get this hearing  
transcribed.  So could you please give me your last name  
so that we can identify you for the record?  
MS. BURGE:  Sure.  My name is Bethany  
Burge.  B as in Boy u-r-g-e.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  O.K.  And are you  
representing yourself or an association?  
MS. BURGE:  Just myself.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  O.K.  All right.  Thank  
you very much, Bethany, for your comments.  
MS. BURGE:  Thank you.  You all have a  
good day.  
KERRY BRZYBYLO:  Thank you.  You too.  
MS. BURGE:  Stay safe.  
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DENA MARKS:  If there are no further  
comments at this time, I hereby declare the hearing  
closed.  The record will remain open today until 5:00  
p.m. for any other comments you may wish to share about  
the proposed rules.  Thank you for attending.  
(Off the record at approximately 1:25 p.m.)  
-   -   -  
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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER  
I, Marie T. Schroeder, do hereby certify  
that I transcribed the foregoing electronic/visual  
recorded hearing held in the above matters via Zoom; In  
Re Occupational Code - Disciplinary Rules, Occupational  
Therapy - General Rules, and Real Estate Brokers and  
Salesperson - General Rules, held via Zoom on Friday,  
September 18, 2020; and do further certify that the  
foregoing transcript, consisting of 12 pages, is a true  
and correct transcript of said recording.  
 
 
Digitally signed by MarieT Schroeder  
DN: cn=MarieT Schroeder, o=Metro  
Court Reporters Inc, ou,  
email=metrostate@sbcglobal.net,  
c=US  
MarieT  
_S__c_h__r_o_e__d_e__r________________  
Date: 2020.09.21 12:18:46 -04'00'  
Marie T. Schroeder, CSR-2183  
P. O. Box 1313   
Walled Lake, Michigan  48390  
248-360-8865  
 
Dated:  September 21, 2020  
 
;