MiLEAP P u b l i c H e a r i n g o n A d m i n i s t r a t i v e R u l e s f o r L i c e n s i n g

R u l e s f o r C h i l d C a r e ( H o m e s )

Michigan Library & Historical Center

702 W. Kalamazoo St., Lansing, MI 48915

12.05.2025

1 p.m. – 3 p.m.

In Person

Meeting Type

Child Care Rule Public Hearing (Homes)

Courtney Adams and Erika Bigelow

Chanti Cole

Facilitator

Notetaker

Michigan Department of Lifelong Education, Advancement, and

Potential Staff: Courtney Adams, Erika Bigelow and Melissa

Horste

Attendees

Public: Sara Cartwright (Child Care Network), Jania Bennett

(Nama’s Childcare) and Johnnie Bennett (Johnnie Bennett Home)

Notes

This is a public hearing on proposed administrative rules entitled

Administrative Rules for Licensing Rules for Child Care Family and

Group Homes. This hearing is being conducted pursuant to the

Child Care Organizations Act 1973 PA 116 and on behalf of the

Department of Lifelong Education, Advancement and Potential.

This hearing is being called to order at 1 p.m. on December 5,

2025, at the Michigan Library and Historical Center.

This hearing was published in three newspapers of general

circulation as well as the Michigan Register issue number 21-2025

published on December 1, 2025. My name is Courtney Adams and

with me is Erika Bigelow and we will be facilitating the hearing

today. Please know we are here today to receive your comments

on the proposed rules.

If you wish to speak, please make sure you have signed in and

indicated your willingness to speak. We will call on speakers in the

order on which names are listed on the sign-in sheets. When you

come forward to speak, please identify yourself with your name,

the organization you represent, and both your mailing and email

address so this information may be transcribed into the hearing.

Courtney Adams

If you have additional comments to submit in writing, you may

leave them at the desk in the back or submit them to the

Department no later than 5 p.m. December 12, 2025. Each

speaker will have a limit of three minutes to speak and provide

information that you need to share. There is a timer on the

overheads for your convenience and an ease of maintaining the

time limit.

If there are no other people who wish to speak at this time, we will

take a short recess at 1:05pm.

Note

One (1) person exited the auditorium at 1:05pm.

Two (2) additional people entered the public hearing auditorium.

MiLEAP P u b l i c H e a r i n g o n A d m i n i s t r a t i v e R u l e s f o r L i c e n s i n g

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We are reconvening at 1:44p.m. This is a public hearing on

proposed administrative rules, entitled Administrative Rules for

Licensing Rules for Child Care, Family, and Group Violence. This

hearing is being conducted pursuant to the Child Care Organization

Act of 1973, PA 116, and on behalf of the Department of Lifelong

Education, Advancement, and Potential.

This hearing was published in 3 newspapers of general circulation,

as well as the Michigan Register, issue number 21-2025, published

on December 1st, 2025. My name is Courtney Adams, and with

me is Erika Bigelow, and we will be facilitating the hearing today.

Please know we are here today to receive your comments on the

proposed rules.

If you wish to speak, please make sure you've signed in and

indicated your willingness to speak. We will call on speakers in the

order in which names are listed on sign-in sheets. When you come

forward to speak, please identify yourself with your name, the

organization you represent, and your mailing and email address,

so this information can be transcribed into the hearing.

Courtney Adams

If you have additional comments to submit in writing, you may

leave them at the desk in the back or submit them to the

Department no later than 5 p.m. on December 12, 2025. Each

speaker will have a limit of 3 minutes to speak and provide

information that you need to share. There is a timer on the

overhead for your convenience and an ease of maintaining the

time limit.

Johnnie Bennett, please come forward, and we can bring the

microphone to you.

Thank you, guys. Nice to meet you.

So, I tried to find a copy of the draft, but it wouldn't come up. So,

this is my 1st time taking a glance at this. But I do see that. I see

that 4 years for holding on to record this is crossed off. I didn't see

the revision. (brief pause)

So, let's see here. But R 400.1903(1)(e). The rule says maintain a

record of the dates of licensee absences. These records must be

maintained for a minimum of 4 years that was crossed out. What’s

this, wonder what you guys changing it to. Can you hear me?

Johnnie Bennett

I'm sorry. Page number 7, and then I guess previously it was,

these records must be maintained for a minimum of 4 years and

it’s crossed out.

I can respond. So, records for the like, the child care home records

got condensed into rule R400.1906, and in sub-rule (2) it states,

the records in this role must be retained for the duration of the

individual's employment in a minimum of 2 years, so we, we tried

to condense. Where some of the rules were throughout the rule

set, we tried to put them into more specified areas.

Erika Bigelow

Now I know I have one off the top of my head (inaudible). Um,

nighttime care. I think previously it was, we had to have beds.

Most of us have small homes, I have a bungalow and I’m licensed

Johnnie Bennett

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for 12 kids. I literally have a couple of bedrooms. Now, I have, I

was able to turn my largest room into an infant room, so I do have

baby beds. But the other age group, where I’m going to fit those

beds into? So, I was wondering, was that updated? As far as the

sleeping, do we have to have actual beds. Most of us have small

rooms you know.

Let me double check. Miss Bennett page 49 of the rules. R

400.1944, page 49.

Erika Bigelow

Johnnie Bennett

R 400.1944 page 44. It cut off. Hello hello.

So, page 49 rule are 400.1944 sub rule 4.

Erika Bigelow

And I think the other thing that I was concerned about personally

was the governor wanted us to incorporate all these extra

extended hours. You know, um for flexibility for workers. Morning

care, evening care. It's only a couple of shifts and that shift is the

am, from like, maybe 4 or 5 in the morning to like, 3 and then you

got people that's coming in about 2 for afternoon care. So that

puts us out of ratio. So, I was wondering, can we be

accommodated for that? Because if somebody walks along, we can

be closed down for stuff like that. You know, it's just no medium.

It's really high stress. When it comes to the rules and trying to

keep up with them and then being marketable, you know what I'm

saying? So. I was just wondering, like, how can we work around

that? Have some more flexibility for us. Because I am licensed for

12 children, but yeah, I have oh, my God. Evening pm care is

more demand is 8:00 am courses in demand still but that

transition period is very scary. You know, so I'm nervous about

that. Other than that, I can't think of anything off the top of my

head.

Johnnie Bennett

Um, yeah, I did see the fire extinguishers were crossed what’s that

about. Smoke detectors fire extinguishers That's on the same

page, page 49 R 400.1944 rule 44. Smoke detectors fire

extinguishers night time care. Operable smoke detectors approved

by a nationally recognized testing laboratory must be installed and

maintained on each floor is crossed off. What was that replaced

with? (inaudible reading)

Ms. Bennett on page 49 at the very bottom. In the new rule set

the proposed rules have a new section for fire safety.

Erika Bigelow

Inaudible brief response.

Johnnie Bennet

And that section continues through page 52.

Okay what about the fire solution, did you guys do more with that?

The section continues to page 52.

Erika Bigelow

Johnnie Bennett

Erika Bigelow

Johnnie Bennett

Oh okay, okay (inaudible reading). Now, there was a situation.

Can you hear me?

Melissa Horste

So actually, I was going to propose maybe a recess, a short recess

since we don't have other folks in the room adding more public

comments at this time.

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Courtney Adams

Okay, if there are no other people who wish to speak at this time,

we'll take a short recess and we'll reconvene at maybe 2.05p.m.

Reconvening at 2:09.

Johnnie Bennett

Well, one of your concerns and this is the personal experience. So,

I know you guys know about the grants…..hello. So, I received a

grant, and I was able to open up a center. But I found myself, I

didn't have a director and everything, but my director quit. So, I

was left at the home daycare. I didn't have employees at the

home daycare and had to act as director until I found someone

else. And the issue that I found was that the percentage that I

have to be in the home, you know, running the home daycare. It's

like going stretch, but I received money to expand. Now I was

talking to someone else, and he said, well, expandable, be like,

you know, we're expanding and getting away from the home

daycare. But in my predicament, I wasn't able to do that because

home daycare it's really high functioning. You know it’s been

around 12 and the center is still growing. I wasn't able to step

away from that. I was talking with my licensing worker for the

center said well you know you can’t do this, you have to make a

decision. I don’t know anything. So, I’m a little bit concerned

about us having qualified people in our home daycares whether be

family or not and not being able to leave for a small percentage of

time; whether you’re sick or on vacation. And so, I'm concerned

about that. I don't know how that works. Who will handle that?

You know, but I think it has something to do with what zoning or

that new department, who would handle something like that.

Maybe they can, you know, work with us as far as giving us a little

bit more freedom, you know, to our time. You know, it's making us

more anxious when we trying to run our businesses. So, I’m

concerned about that. And keeping employees in this industry is

very difficult when you understand you don’t just share the

money, the money goes back to the business anyway, you have to

really pay these workers to keep them. And so therefore I'm in my

home daycare group, I have a qualified teacher that's CDA

certified, CPR and all the other training out the way.

But I have to be there for show this opportunity considering that I

have a center that I had another director for and didn’t have that

much and I would have so much to do, there’s so much stuff or,

you know, worry, you know, it's so much stress worrying about

these rooms and licensing, you know, not being cited in that for

things and you're trying to do things for the government of the

child care industry and the families, you know, single children, you

know, so. So, it's just the constituents too. And I mean everybody

situation, but some people do, especially since we got that grant

money, and were able to expand. I know a lot of people say well,

soon as you open the center, you can close that one down now,

but it's going to fund it. So, it's just that some were concerned

about that really not where it is right here, some of the OK right

here it says R401 sign hopefully.

R 400.1903(i) vacation of personal leave when the licensee is on

vacation, which takes personal leave which must not exceed 20

days or anything out of the economy to grow in a calendar year.

The 20 days of vacation or 20 days of vacation or personal leave

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means the licensee is absent the entire day or less than 51% of

the day for a child care home. Unless it seems like that a short

period of absence from a child. You know it's not I don't know this

is the part of the definition, but this would be something that it's

not in the definition list. This would be something that would help

me and probably other providers to define. You know what, does

anyone understand? Are we able to, if we need to leave more than

20 days off the year? You know what I'm saying? If I have the

center, can I go back and go forth? You know, are you going to

allow me that? Considering that the government wants us to, the

governor wanted us to expand, you know, our own daycares and

different shifts and even grow into a center to help with the

community our I'm gonna come with the checks and, you know,

even grow into it, you know, get a center, you know, having a safe

and quality child care. But we're still under that cliff. We're trying

to do all these things, but it's like the rules won't allow us to do

and kind of work with the two, you know, and you know, maybe

the license worker may have another document. OK, you have

this. We need to get an agreement going, OK, this is how many

days you're going to be gone. This is this or we know we would

come to get that sign in and out sheet. OK, we're over you OK, I'm

going over here like today when I've left. I'm not here signing in.

I'm at a hearing. You know, you know, I have, you know, long as

I'm, I feel long as I have qualified people in that home, you know,

while I'm away trying to do things or advocate for child care or

grow my business or different things like that. It's just that it

needs to be room to grow and work with people that are

expanding. Some people don't want to expand some people are

content, but just, you know, have all daycare for years. And I'm

not that I didn't want to grow, but I got the opportunity to grow

and so I took it. But the rules don't support that, you know,

especially in this climate that we're in, you know, to being able to

keep working. I don't know if this is the right spot for this because

this could, you know, it could involve in some other type of rules

or laws, you know, but I know it still ends up here. So, it's just,

and I'm sorry for this people. I'm so sorry.

Um, I'm looking at this current concurrent licensing, and I know

that would probably be (inaudible).

Melissa Horste

The mic is picking it up, and yeah thank you.

My apologies.

Johnnie Bennett

Melissa Horste

Yeah, thank you.

I slipped a couple of pages, and I saw the concurrent licensing, but

I lost it. Oh, here it is R 400-1905. I don't know exactly what a

concurrent. I don’t’ know if it’s like foster care or something like

that concurrent licensing, but maybe (Insert inaudible) that can

follow up under there. You know what I'm saying? Have an

additional licensing not in my name, but in an entity that I own.

Maybe they can kind of like it's just a recommendation, maybe

that's all. But I don't know what all the, you know, the laws and

rules and stipulations are for having concurrent license. But I just

wanted to be considered because I, I'm not ready to close down

daycare. My parents depend on me. I've had kids for eight years,

you know, and it's like I'm not ready for that. And in my center, I

Johnnie Bennett

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don't know if I still want to have it in the area. So, it's still, I'm still

kind of trying to grow, as you know, because we're also

entrepreneurs and still business people as well. So, it's, you know,

trying to battle with this, these words kind of work with this and

support us.

R 400.1927 staff ratio of staff children, the ratio of staff to children

present in the family child care home and during transportation at

any one time. The question it's talking about relatives but

unrelated relatives, just want to have clarity.

All children and care for are not related to any staff members ratio

of staff to children in family child care homes. But I guess this

must be in family and group.

Courtney Adams

And just for clarity, we can't answer the question, but we can

receive your comment.

Johnnie Bennett

Yeah, I guess it's going to be a comment. I hope this is a

comment. Was there a meeting that I could have gone to for

questions? This is the hearing for comments. Was there a meeting

for questions? I didn't get that.

Melissa Horste

So, so again, this is the point for public comment, so they wouldn’t

be able to respond to questions though. So, does that make

sense?

Johnnie Bennett

Yeah, yeah, ok, ok. You know, I came all the way from Detroit. I'm

like, you know I can always call, well, Ok guys, I'm not going to

hold you. I'm just going to sit here until the end of the meeting. I

appreciate your time for the hearing.

Courtney Adams

Are there any other people who wish to speak at this time. If there

are no further comments, I hereby declare the hearing closed. Any

additional comments regarding the proposed rules that you may

wish to share must be submitted in writing to Erika Bigelow and

Chanti Cole, The Landmark Building, 105 W Allen St., 2nd Floor,

Lansing, MI 48933 or [email protected]. The

record will remain open until December 12th, 2025, at 5p.m. The

current time is 2:32 p.m. and thank you for coming.