DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN  
SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY,  
PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
Prepared by  
depos@networkreporting.com  
Phone: 800.632.2720  
Fax: 800.968.8653  
www.networkreporting.com  
Let us assist you GLOBALLY for all of your deposition needs.  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES  
CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY  
PUBLIC HEARING - VOL. I  
RULES FOR CHILD CARING INSTITUTIONS  
via Zoom Video Conference  
Thursday, June 3, 2021, 9:00 a.m.  
APPEARANCES:  
For the Department of MS. MARY E. BRENNAN  
Human and Human  
Services:  
State Administrative Manager and  
Regulatory Affairs Officer  
Michigan Department of Health and Human  
Services  
333 South Grand Avenue  
Lansing, Michigan 48909  
(517) 335-0745  
Also Present:  
RECORDED BY:  
Kelly Maltby, Soleil Campbell  
Marcy A. Klingshirn, CER 6924  
Certified Electronic Recorder  
Network Reporting Corporation  
Firm Registration Number 8151  
1-800-632-2720  
Page 1  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
TABLE OF CONTENTS  
2
3
PAGE  
Statement by Ms. Brennan . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  
Statement by Gabrielle French. . . . . . . . . . . .  
3
6
4
Statement by Melissa Keating . . . . . . . . . . . . 9, 18  
5
Statement by Tara DeGroot. . . . . . . . . . . . . .  
Statement by Tori Benden . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  
Statement by Shannon Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . .  
Statement by Juli Reynolds . . . . . . . . . . . . .  
Statement by Jerry Peterson. . . . . . . . . . . . .  
12  
21  
23  
24  
28  
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
Page 2  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
Via Zoom Video Conference  
Thursday, June 3, 2021 - 9:06 a.m.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Let's get started. It is now  
9:06 a.m. Marcy, are you set to go?  
2
3
4
5
REPORTER: I am. Thank you.  
6
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Very good. 9:06 a.m., on  
Thursday, June 3rd, 2021. My name is Mary Brennan. Last  
name spelled B-r-e-n-n-a-n. And I am the regulatory affairs  
officer for the Michigan Department of Health and Human  
Services.  
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
We are on the record today for the public hearing  
for the administrative rules involving Child Caring  
Institutions number 2020-039 H.S. At this time I'd like to  
introduce our subject matter experts for the hearing. If  
they could introduce themselves and what their job function  
is at DHHS? We'll start with you, Kelly.  
MS. MALTBY: Good morning, everybody. My name is  
Kelly Maltby and I am a manager at the central office in the  
Division of Child Welfare Licensing. I handle all things  
related to rules and statutes as well as I oversee  
disciplinary action of foster homes and child welfare  
agencies.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you very much, Kelly. And our  
other expert today will be Soleil. Soleil, can you  
introduce yourself and your function? Did we lose Soleil?  
Page 3  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
MS. CAMPBELL: Good morning, everyone. This is  
2
3
Soleil Campbell. I'm the juvenile justice program office  
manager at the Michigan Department of Health and Human  
Services.  
4
5
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Very good. Throughout this  
hearing I will periodically place the public hearing  
housekeeping rules up and process document for your  
6
7
8
convenience. If we can go over it really -- rather quickly.  
All phones will be muted upon entry to the hearing. The  
hearing will be recorded for purposes of transcription and  
transparency. We have the wonderful Marcy from Network  
Reporting who will be doing the transcribing for this  
hearing. If you'd like to make a comment, please raise your  
hand. If you are not on Zoom, but have called in, I will  
refer to the last four of your phone number to see if you'd  
like to make a statement. One person shall speak at a time.  
When you would like to make a statement and I call your  
name, please unmute your computer or phone. While your  
comments are invaluable to this public hearing, we ask that  
you respect the public hearing process, keep comments  
respectable and do not disrupt the hearing process for all.  
Everyone who wishes to provide testimony will get the  
opportunity to do so.  
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
If I can remind you, this is the first of two  
public hearings. The next one will be a week from today  
Page 4  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
starting at 9:00 o'clock. That is required by statute that  
2
3
two public hearings be held. If you wish to make a  
statement, you will be asked your name. Please spell your  
last name for Marcy and identify what organization if any  
4
5
you are speaking on behalf of. Two 15-minute breaks, one at  
10:00, one at 2:00, and I'm going to give you a whole  
30-minute break at 12:00 noon for lunch.  
6
7
8
Comments for the public hearing ends next Friday,  
June 11th. If you have any further comments to make that  
you wanted to give and forgot to do so or can't make the  
next public hearing, this is the e-mail box you would  
provide that written testimony to. The rule status is  
available at that link if you want to jot that down. It'll  
let you know where we are in the process. And finally, a  
copy of the hearing transcript will be available at the  
AdminRules e-mail box. Please wait two weeks. Marcy, is  
that presumptuous, two weeks?  
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
REPORTER: Two weeks is our normal. Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Two weeks before requesting a  
copy. So those are our housekeeping rules.  
I would ask that if you'd like to make a comment,  
please raise your hand and I will call on you in the order  
of the hands raised. And, again, I will refer to any phone  
numbers. If I haven't referred to a phone number, please  
interrupt me and say, "Hey, Mary, you're forgetting about  
Page 5  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
me." That'll be fine. So if you want to -- we want to take  
it from here, who would like to make our first comment?  
MS. CAMPBELL: Mary, I don't know if it's just me,  
but I'm seeing I Love Lucy.  
MS. BRENNAN: Let me see. I have one hand up. Is  
this Gabrielle French?  
2
3
4
5
6
7
MS. GABRIELLE FRENCH: Yes. Hi. Good morning.  
MS. BRENNAN: Good morning. Would you spell --  
please spell your first and last name and proceed with your  
comment? Thank you.  
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
GABRIELLE FRENCH  
MS. GABRIELLE FRENCH: Yes. So my first name is  
spelled G-a-b-r-i-e-l-l-e and my last name is spelled  
F-r-e-n-c-h, French like the language. All right.  
Well, good morning. Thank you for the opportunity  
to testify before you today. My name is Gabrielle French,  
and I'm the policy associate for the Michigan Center for  
Youth Justice. I'm here to testify in support of the rule  
changes overall with several recommendations.  
The rule changes are generally an improvement on  
the previous rules. As a member of the steering committee  
convened by MDHHS, I can say confidently that these changes  
were not made lightly or without thoughtful consideration.  
These changes bring the rules into compliance with  
nationally recognized best practices and represent  
Page 6  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
collaborative input for most key stakeholder groups.  
However, as a youth justice advocacy organization, MCYJ felt  
2
3
it critical to highlight where the rule changes are leaving  
behind justice involved youth.  
4
5
Our recommendations which we have submitted in a  
6
detailed public comment emphasize the following points.  
First, the significant need for oversight. Following the  
tragic and preventable death of Cornelius Frederick, MCYJ  
began examining Lakeside Academy's licensure records finding  
significant and repeated violations. It is our belief that  
with more effective oversight, these continuing violations  
would not have occurred and the safety of Michigan's  
children would be improved in such situations. Second, the  
need for youth and family is to be involved in all aspects  
of treatment, including the development of the child's  
treatment plan. Families and caregivers should also be  
consulted in the development of administrative rules and  
policy decisions that would impact the child. Last, and  
most critical for MCYJ, is the necessity for juvenile  
facilities which include detention and secure residential  
facilities for justice involved youth to be subject to the  
same requirements as other child caring institution. In the  
proposed rule changes, secure juvenile justice facilities  
are separated out from CCIs and subject to a different set  
of rules. MCYJ holds that juvenile facilities should be  
Page 7  
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
included in the plan for the elimination of seclusion and  
2
3
non-emergency restraints by May 1st, 2022, as are CCIs.  
With the consideration and integration of these  
4
recommendations, MCYJ supports the proposed rule changes.  
5
Thank you for your time and I'm happy to take any questions.  
MS. BRENNAN: Are there any questions for  
6
7
Gabrielle? Gabrielle, thank you very much for your comment.  
MS. GABRIELLE FRENCH: Thank you.  
8
9
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Any more hands? Does anyone  
on the phone care to make a statement? Well you guys are  
very cooperative today. It's going to be a easy public  
hearing. Okay. I'm going to place my phone on mute for a  
minute. I will continue to check back to see if there are  
any hands up, anybody wants to offer any testimony and we'll  
continue to allow people  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
as participants as the morning goes on. Thank  
you. Marcy, you want to go off the record until we have  
testimony and then I will let you know to move back on.  
REPORTER: Sounds good. Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: Good morning. For those who just  
joined in the last 15, 20 minutes, what's up is a scrolling  
of the housekeeping rules for today. If you would like to  
make a comment, please raise your hand and we will get your  
Page 8  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
testimony down. Thank you. Marcy, off the record.  
2
3
REPORTER: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
4
MS. BRENNAN: Hi, Melissa. How are you?  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: I'm good. Thanks.  
MS. BRENNAN: Please move forward with your  
5
6
7
comment -- I -- oh, can you wait one second? Marcy, are you  
back on the record?  
8
9
REPORTER: I am.  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Very good. Melissa, can you  
please provide your comment? Thank you.  
MELISSA KEATING  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: Yeah. Looking at rule 122  
with the parent visitation.  
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 4112.  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: I guess, would a -- I  
haven't done a public hearing before. I'm sorry. But  
looking at it, it's very often that we don't have a court  
order for visitation but we follow what the MDHHS workers  
parent/agency treatment plan is regarding visitation. And I  
know sometimes there are no visits and I don't always see  
court orders for that and I'm wondering if it would make  
more sense to be within the guidelines of the MDHHS service  
plans and PATPs.  
MS. BRENNAN: Kelly? Soleil? What do you think?  
Page 9  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
I'm trying to find the rule right now. Did you say 122?  
2
3
MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, that's what she said.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay.  
4
MS. CAMPBELL: So there are -- and I'm not sure  
what type of use you're referring to, if they're non-MDHHS  
supervised use. So the child caring institution rules  
obviously apply to all youths in the child caring  
institution and not necessarily just those that are under  
5
6
7
8
9
the care and supervision of MDHHS. But there are guidelines  
within here to be able to do that in accordance with the  
service plan. So this is requiring child caring  
institutions to be able to provide for the visits and making  
sure that it is available. There could be a court order  
such as a personal protection order or a restriction put on  
parenting time for safety issues and so that accommodates  
that in the second half of the rule.  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: Okay. I read it as family  
time must be provided. What if it was -- if -- or there is  
a court order/treatment plan or something that -- I feel  
like I could see us getting stuck here even though we're  
following what the external team is recommending and  
wanting.  
MS. CAMPBELL: Yeah, the requirement in this rule  
is requiring it to be provided unless there's a court order  
that restricts the parenting time or unless parental rights  
Page 10  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
have been terminated. And so if there's a recommendation  
2
3
against parenting time, that would need to be brought to  
court to decide the issues so all parties could have input.  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: Okay. I guess I -- yeah, I  
4
5
know that sometimes we ask for stuff like that and don't get  
it, so I would hope if we just have documentation requesting  
it, that would cover us.  
6
7
8
MS. MALTBY: And Melissa --  
9
MS. BRENNAN: Oh.  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. MALTBY: Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mary.  
MS. BRENNAN: All I was going to say is if Melissa  
has some proposed language to, you know, update the rule or  
anything, by all means send it to the e-mail box and we can  
review it. Kelly, go on.  
MS. MALTBY: Honestly, that's exactly what I was  
going to say, Mary. Is that Melissa have proposed language,  
we'd be happy to consider it.  
MS. BRENNAN: Great minds think alike.  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: I can do that. Thank you,  
guys.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
REPORTER: Mary, are we off the record?  
MS. BRENNAN: Actually, it's 9:55 at this time.  
I'm telling you people, I've worked up quite a sweat with  
all of this arguing and everything else. But how about we  
Page 11  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
take a 15-minute break and go back on the record at 10:10?  
2
3
REPORTER: Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Off the record. Thanks.  
4
(Off the record)  
5
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Good morning, everyone. For  
those who just joined us, we're back on the record for the  
child caring institution rules 2020-39 HAS. For those who  
have just joined, I will be scrolling the housekeeping  
rules. If you would like to make a comment, please raise  
your hand if you are on a computer. If you are on your  
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
phone, just come right out and indicate you'd like to make a  
statement. Marcy, why don't we go off the record until  
there is a comment?  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: You want to spell your first and  
last name, Tara, please?  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: T-a-r-a D-e-G-r-o-o-t.  
MS. BRENNAN: Sorry. Marcy, did you catch that?  
Are we back on the record?  
REPORTER: I did. Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. And please go ahead.  
TARA DEGROOT  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: I just wanted to make a comment  
Page 12  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
on the licensing rules of 400.4113, Employee Records. One  
2
3
of the challenges of running a child caring institution  
these days tends to be hiring. I think especially now that  
4
it's during COVID we're all really feeling that. And one of  
the biggest challenges I have run into several times,  
especially when hiring folks out of state, is this  
requirement under (i) documentation from the Department of  
Human Services for the equivalent state. The line I have  
trouble with is, "The document shall be completed not more  
than 30 days prior to the start of employment" -- this is  
specifically referring to check clearances for child abuse.  
And a number of times when hiring I've had issues of running  
into that 30 days and I'm not sure that the 30 days provides  
any measure of safety in terms of if I hire somebody in 29  
days and they go and work for me and it's another year  
before I re-run the report versus hiring them at 31 days  
and, or, rather, probably more like 40 days and having to  
re-run the report. I think it's just a burdensome  
regulation in terms of trying to hire folks. It doesn't  
really provide any measure of safety. I'd like to see it  
either eliminated all together or just increased to maybe 45  
or 60 days so that I'm having less trouble with those hires  
that take awhile to get pushed through. I guess that's my  
comment.  
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: Tara, can you identify which rule  
Page 13  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
you're speaking of? Do you know?  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: Sure. It's under "Employee  
Records" which is 4113.  
2
3
4
MS. MALTBY: And this is Kelly Maltby. I just  
wanted to get some clarification. Are you operating a  
contracted child caring institution or is your child caring  
institution non-contracted with the state?  
5
6
7
8
MS. TARA DEGROOT: We're not contracted with the  
state. We run a shelter under a federal grant.  
MS. MALTBY: Okay. Got it. Okay. So the  
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
background to this is recently there was some legislation  
passed known as the Families First Prevention Services Act.  
And this act required that all Michigan contracted CCIs have  
this particular documentation where if the person has  
resided out of the state of Michigan within the previous  
five years, so it's only people who have lived out of state  
within the previous five years, that the state of Michigan  
has to make a request of that other state for an abuse and  
neglect background check.  
Now, I know that, you know, because my staff  
actually operate and they run these clearances for our  
contracted facilities. I know that sometimes these out of  
state entities are really a challenge to get those  
clearances within a timely manner. So once the state has  
decided and what we got clarification from the federal  
Page 14  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
government on is the person can begin employment as long as  
2
3
the request has been made of the other state at -- before  
the person is hired. So for example, if you're hiring an  
employee who has lived in the state of Florida, that person  
can begin working with you as long as you've made the  
request to the state of Florida for the particular  
4
5
6
7
background check, the child abuse neglect background check  
results. I will tell you also -- and I can shoot you my  
e-mail afterwards -- because my staff do this continuously,  
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
we know every -- in and out of every state at this point and  
what forms you have to submit and we would be happy to help  
you. You know, if you'd like to shoot me an e-mail, I can  
help you make sure that you have the right forms for the  
right states and that makes it -- the process a lot smoother  
for your agency.  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: So am I to understand that it's  
some sort of legislation that's putting that 30-day  
requirement in there?  
MS. MALTBY: Right; exactly. So, I mean, what --  
the 30-day requirement is saying that, you know, basically  
the child abuse neglect check has to be recent, right. Like  
you can't present a child abuse neglect check from five  
years ago and say this is, you know, this is legit. The  
reason that it's giving that 30 days is because, you know,  
we want to make sure that the check is recent.  
Page 15  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
MS. TARA DEGROOT: Yeah. I think the problem is  
2
3
the 30-day window is definitely -- can definitely prove  
onerous if a person's taking awhile to get hired.  
MS. MALTBY: Right; right. I hear you. And, I  
4
5
mean, that's something that maybe we can discuss, you know,  
as we go through the testimony of this as whether or not we  
can extend that time period out. But, you know, as long  
as -- as long as the request has been made to the other  
state, you know, then you're safe to hire that person and  
allow them to start working. So if you --  
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: Sure. I understand that. Even  
within -- even -- even excluding out of state hires there's  
other reasons that a hiring might take longer.  
MS. MALTBY: Right.  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: It's pro- -- like all of a  
sudden -- and it's not like you were really conscious of it,  
and all of a sudden you're within like a week, "Oh, my gosh,  
now we have to re-run the entire check and that's often up  
to two weeks more time to hiring somebody.  
MS. MALTBY: Right. What I would recommend is  
that that's one of the -- one of the final things that  
you're doing as this person has been onboard so that you  
aren't having to make that check. We can definitely discuss  
whether or not we can extend that 30-day current requirement  
out further after this hearing. But, you know, from a  
Page 16  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
technical standpoint, I would say most states take no longer  
than 15 days to return the background checks to you provided  
2
3
that you do it on the correct form and in the correct  
fashion with that state. So, and that's where, like I said,  
my crew could probably help out and make sure that  
everything is going okay.  
4
5
6
7
MS. TARA DEGROOT: Well, honestly, even as little  
as like about a 15-day addition to that would really make a  
huge difference.  
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. MALTBY: Right. Okay. Well, I appreciate  
your comment.  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: Thank you.  
MS. MALTBY: And we will look at that. Yup.  
MS. CAMPBELL: Kelly, this is Soleil. I'm also  
wondering if we can look at, like, whether or not like an  
offer of contingent employment knowing that then it would be  
within 30 days, like if that's something that could fit  
within those rules?  
MS. MALTBY: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense,  
definitely.  
MS. BRENNAN: And this is Mary. Maybe why  
wouldn't we note that maybe this is something to flush out  
in the technical assistance manual?  
MS. MALTBY: That would be -- that would be a  
really great idea especially with all the different  
Page 17  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
intricacies of out of state entities and who they can come  
to for help on making those requests.  
MS. BRENNAN: Perfect. Okay. Tara, thank you for  
your comment.  
MS. TARA DEGROOT: Thank you for hearing me.  
2
3
4
5
6
MS. BRENNAN: Marcy, off the record, please.  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
7
8
(Off the record)  
9
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Give it a go, Melissa.  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: All right, Thanks.  
MELISSA KEATING  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: I'm looking at Rule  
112(7)(b).  
MS. BRENNAN: For the record, "A staff member will  
conduct himself or herself in a manner that is conducive to  
the welfare of children and be able to meet the needs of  
children and provide for their care, supervision, and  
protection." Is that what you're referencing?  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: Yeah.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay.  
MS. MELISSA KEATING: And I don't have great word  
advice, but I promise to work on it and shoot you another  
e-mail. But I guess I'm reading that and feeling like it's  
relatively broad and up to probably whoever shows up for an  
investigation to decide where it fits. I guess wondering if  
Page 18  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
there's -- if we can add some clarity of accountability for  
2
3
the individual versus the agency? My thought process is  
that we train them, they're qualified, they're supervised,  
they make a poor decision and puts the agency in  
noncompliance even though they're in compliance up to not  
controlling an individual.  
4
5
6
7
MS. BRENNAN: Did you have some proposed language  
to tighten it up?  
8
9
MS. MELISSA KEATING: I'm sitting here trying to  
think of that and I don't have -- it's -- everything I'm  
coming up with still feels pretty broad and I'm just  
thinking of consultants that we've had over the years. I  
can -- I can see different interpretation from several. I  
think was this -- is this where we usually see the  
qualification citations; right? I think I remember we had  
quite a discussion on this awhile back.  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. MALTBY: Yes, the place is the staff  
qualifications rule, yes, where it be -- it used to be,  
"(7) A person with duties shall have both of the  
following: (a) Ability to perform the duties of the  
position assigned; and (b) Experience to perform the  
duties of the position assigned."  
So the new language replaces that.  
MS. BRENNAN: This is Mary Brennan. The good news  
is that you have at least 'til next Friday to come up with  
Page 19  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
the -- maybe tightening up the language a little bit. I  
hear what you're saying and I think Kelly and Soleil also  
2
3
hear what you're saying. So any proposed language to assist  
on that in tightening up and we will review.  
4
5
MS. MALTBY: The discussion on this area -- and  
6
this is Kelly Maltby again -- that was mulled over at the  
rulemaking committees was the fact that there are a lot of  
staff that have the ability to perform the duties and the  
experience, but they don't perform the duties. They may,  
you know, do something inappropriate with a child or they  
might physically harm a child, and for that we were  
struggling all these years in DCW with finding that rule  
language in (7), what used to be 7(a) and (b), and having it  
tie into what the staff person's conduct was. As far as an  
agency as a child caring institution, there's a certain  
amount of what's known as vicarious liability where the  
licensee is held responsible for the individual actions of  
their staff. However, in this rule the way that we changed  
it to read, it's still -- it's not going to hold an agency  
automatically accountable if you have a staff that for lack  
of a better term goes rogue; right? This is the rule that  
we would cite if you had a staff that acted inappropriately.  
It doesn't necessarily mean that there's something that's  
going to happen, you know, to the license as an agency. We  
just wanted to make the language fit a little bit better  
Page 20  
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
with some of the issues that we see staff having in child  
caring institutions, some of the ways in which things happen  
2
3
wrong. So, but, yes, I mean, definitely if you have, you  
know, some language suggestions, we're more than happy to  
take a look at it.  
4
5
6
MS. MELISSA KEATING: Okay. We'll look at it and  
I will send something. I don't have a magic answer right  
now. I'm sorry.  
7
8
9
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you for the comment. **Tori,  
are you still on the call?  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. TORI BENDEN: I am.  
TORI BENDEN  
MS. BRENNAN: Tori, you just sent me an e-mail and  
I do appreciate it. Do you mind if I read it out?  
MS. TORI BENDEN: Yeah, no problem.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Tori's question was do I know  
the reasoning behind Rule 400.4437(6) under the  
Environmental Health CCI rules of the prohibition of the use  
of deep fryers. My answer is no, I don't. The  
Environmental Health section was written by the local Health  
Officers Association and that is what they have provided as  
updates to the previous CCI rules with regard to  
environmental. I will seek clarification on that of why  
there is a prohibition on the use of deep fryers and I will  
document that in the comments to the rules when we send  
Page 21  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
everything over to JCAR, unless Kelly, Soleil, any ideas of  
2
3
why they would prohibit the use of deep fryers?  
MS. MALTBY: Are you saying "deep fryers"?  
MS. BRENNAN: Deep fryers.  
4
5
MS. TORI BENDEN: Yeah.  
6
MS. CAMPBELL: I think some of them are -- I think  
some of it's related to fire risk, but --  
7
8
MS. MALTBY: Oh. Oh, I'm -- yeah. And that's  
actually outside of my scope of expertise. We had fire and  
safety to handle all of that. So we can definitely ask that  
question of them following this hearing.  
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: Yeah. And for the record, it is --  
there is a laundry list under 4437 with regard to food prep  
areas and cooking equipment and it does say the use of deep  
fryers is prohibited. So Tori, I will follow up on that and  
we will have a answer for you.  
MS. TORI BENDEN: Thank you. You know, I've read  
the first section of these several times but I'm just now  
reading this last environmental section so I might have more  
questions.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Yeah. Again, I sought out  
the expertise of both the LARA fire safety program under the  
fire safety rules and all of the fire safety rules are up to  
code and everything that is currently required by their  
expertise. And I, again, under the local health  
Page 22  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
association, they wrote and provided the amendments to the  
2
3
environmental section. So outside of my scope, but  
certainly within theirs. So we'll see what that deal is.  
MS. TORI BENDEN: Okay. Thank you.  
4
5
MS. BRENNAN: Uh-huh (affirmative).  
6
MS. SHANNON BROWN: Mary, this is Shannon Brown  
from Ingham County DHS.  
7
8
SHANNON BROWN  
9
MS. SHANNON BROWN: I'm wondering under that same  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
section if we can inquire in on number (2) on the "Carpeting  
is prohibited in food preparation areas"? If we could maybe  
find out the reasoning behind that? Because I anticipated  
there are some older homes that might have carpeting in the  
kitchen. Is that what it's basically saying?  
MS. BRENNAN: "Carpeting is prohibited in food  
preparation areas," that is the current comment. I will.  
I'll follow up on that one as well. Thank you.  
MS. SHANNON BROWN: I just know that, I mean,  
there's going to be some older homes that will have that,  
especially, you know, in rural areas and such.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. So that comment's been  
recorded and we'll follow up on that. Thank you very much.  
Sorry. I'm competing with the garbage truck here, so I'm  
going to go mute for a minute. You want to go off the  
record, Marcy?  
Page 23  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
REPORTER: Yes. Thank you.  
2
3
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: Marcy, back on the record. Ms.  
4
Reynolds, how are you?  
5
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: I'm good.  
6
JULI REYNOLDS  
7
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: I was patiently waiting. I  
didn't, wasn't sure what -- how to approach. But anyhow, I  
just have kind of a question on the wording and what it  
means before I could even come up with any different  
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
wording. If the rule 159, "Youth restraint; pregnant youth;  
reduction; prevention," there's a whole list of things  
there. And down to number (10).  
MS. BRENNAN: Hold on one second.  
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: It just seems to be a lot in  
that sentence and I was just trying -- I thought like it  
makes it sounds like it's eliminated, but not for secure  
facilities. My thought was -- my understanding throughout  
all these discussions was restraints are being eliminated  
for all facilities except for the emergency restraint when  
it came to, you know, the welfare -- I shouldn't say  
welfare, but the severe injury of youth.  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. For the record, Juli's  
referring to the following:  
"All restraints for child caring institutions that  
Page 24  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
are not secure juvenile justice facilities, with the  
2
3
exception of an emergency restraint as provided in  
R 400.4160, will be prohibited effective May 1, 2022."  
I do recall so many discussions and so many  
4
5
changes to that particular language. Soleil, can you help  
out why -- what the (inaudible) of adding security of all  
facilities?  
6
7
8
MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. I think actually that was a  
good -- that's a good catch on the part of the comment in  
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
terms of the fact that we had several iterations of this and  
I think that language actually was going to be taken out  
because we defined the emergency restraint, and so we were  
going back and forth with how to do that. And so I think  
that you're correct that the purpose of this was to take  
out -- so we would have -- we would be wanting to take out  
"that are not secure juvenile justice facilities" because  
that was part of one of the iterations. And so I think that  
is actually in there in error because I think it is supposed  
to have read, "All restraints for child caring institutions  
with the exception of emergency restraint as provided in  
4160 will be prohibited effective May 1st, 2022." That was  
my understanding of where we ended at the end of our  
conversations because the emergency restraint exceptions  
were those that were identified.  
The piece that we talked about related to taking  
Page 25  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
out -- the reason why we took out the "secure juvenile  
justice facilities" was because we had the discussion around  
2
3
the fact that these were focused on restraints within the  
facility and not restraints related to transport of use when  
necessary such as from a secured juvenile justice facility  
to a court hearing when it's necessary for safety to prevent  
escape.  
4
5
6
7
8
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: Okay. I think I sent an  
e-mail about it awhile ago because I had read that and --  
MS. CAMPBELL: So if you --  
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: -- it was confusing because if  
you went back to 4160, it did tell you, you know, what an  
emergency restraint was or whatever and I was very confused  
as to what that exactly meant.  
MS. CAMPBELL: If you --  
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: So if that's the intent is to  
take that line out, then that makes more sense.  
MS. CAMPBELL: I think we will look really closely  
at it to make sure. There is something else in 4161, I  
think, if you scroll down a little further, Mary, that talks  
about the secure juvenile justice facilities.  
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: Yup.  
MS. CAMPBELL: And it's related to some of the new  
restrictions that are on there. And so when we had put  
in -- again, we had put in the secure facilities into that  
Page 26  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
one, but then we went down here and we fixed it to allow for  
2
3
these pieces within it. So would it be more clear to take  
it out or would it be more clear to potentially to add a  
reference to section 161 in Rule 159?  
4
5
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: I just thought that that line  
6
didn't make sense when you read the other two rules. So you  
guys do what you want. I understand what you mean now, and  
I was pretty sure I understood. I just thought that that  
had not went along with all the discussions we had in, like  
I said, 61 and 60. And so I was wondering if there was  
something I was missing there.  
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. CAMPBELL: Well, and that goes to the piece of  
primarily the mechanical restraints. And so I wonder if the  
exception should be with the exception of those outlined in  
Rule 4160 and 4161 so that we're referencing both of those  
within 4159 so it's clear and we take out that reference to  
"secure juvenile facilities" because it does read a little  
strange. So we can -- we can look at tweaking that. But if  
you have any suggestions as well, that would be great.  
MS. BRENNAN: So this is Mary. I totally agree.  
It does provide in 59 "all restraints," but then we do look  
to 61 which clearly allows mechanical. So we do have to  
tighten up that language. It is -- there is a conflict and  
thank you, Juli, for pointing that out.  
MS. JULI REYNOLDS: No problem.  
Page 27  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
MS. CAMPBELL: Yeah, primarily because the  
non-secure facilities don't allow for mechanical restraint  
2
3
at all, and so I think -- but I think we can do a better job  
of wording that and referencing.  
4
5
MS. BRENNAN: I agree. If there are no further  
comments with regard to that or any of the other rules,  
we'll go off the record.  
6
7
8
REPORTER: Thank you.  
9
(Off the record)  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: Jerry, let's hear that statement.  
MR. JERRY PETERSON: Okay. Thank you.  
JERRY PETERSON  
MR. JERRY PETERSON: So Jerry Peterson. I'm the  
executive director of the Ruth Ellis Center based in  
Highland Park, Michigan. And we serve LGBTQ children and  
youth, primarily 13 to 30 and their families.  
We really do appreciate the opportunity to provide  
input on the administrative rule changes and we express our  
support for these rule changes, specifically the protections  
that are included for youth with diverse sexual orientation,  
gender identity, and expression. And in my comments, I'll  
be using the acronym SOGIE to represent that phrase, diverse  
sexual orientation, gender identity and expression.  
We know nationally that these children are over  
represented in child welfare systems across the county. On  
Page 28  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
average 20 percent, or more than one in five children in  
2
3
child welfare systems nationally have diverse -- identify  
with diverse SOGIE and, but they represent a much smaller  
percentage of the total population. The vulnerability of  
children with diverse SOGIE is well documented and it  
reinforces the need for placement in the system with their  
4
5
6
7
gender identity, and also that prioritizes the youth's views  
about their own safety in the settings that they live in.  
Youth with diverse SOGIE often suffer harm such as  
consequence of rejection and social marginalization and that  
pervasive rejection and bias happens in homes, schools,  
communities. And these children often experience high rates  
of depression, suicidality, substance use, physical and  
sexual victimization and hopelessness, family conflict,  
verbal harassment. School bullying and physical assault  
constitute the harsh daily reality for way too many of these  
young people. And social conditions for transgender girls  
of color are particularly brutal and child caring  
institutions should consider these factors related to  
physical and emotional safety when making placement  
decisions as the rule language outlines.  
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
Children with diverse SOGIE are a particularly  
vulnerable population with unique developmental tasks. They  
also have the same inherent capacity for happiness,  
achievement, and healthy adjustment as other children.  
Page 29  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
Placing children with diverse SOGIE in unsafe or hostile  
2
3
settings through the child welfare system exacerbates their  
isolation, sense of instability and trauma, and really  
compromises their health and future opportunities. Placing  
them on the other hand with loving, supporting adults who  
provide a safe atmosphere in which they can explore and  
4
5
6
7
develop their identities really maximizes their potential to  
thrive and become healthy adults. Placements that consider  
youths of diverse SOGIE and prioritize the youth's views  
about their own safety and well being not only nurtures  
children, but helps to protect them from the negative  
effects of living in an otherwise unaccepting society. So  
by adopting and implementing gender affirming policies and  
practices, child caring institutions promote the safety,  
permanency, and well being of children with diverse SOGIE  
which is of course our goal and the primary goal and purpose  
of the child welfare system in the state of Michigan.  
So in summary, we support the proposed language  
changes and we're grateful for the consideration that has  
been given to these issues. That ends my statement.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you, Jerry. Appreciate it.  
Any questions, comments, based on Jerry's testimony? Okay.  
Very good. Thank you, Jerry. I truly appreciate it.  
Marcy, if there are no further comments from anyone, let's  
go off the record temporarily.  
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
Page 30  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
REPORTER: Thank you.  
2
3
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
4
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. It is almost 12:00 o'clock,  
so why don't we break 12:00 to 12:30. You're welcome to  
stay on the line if you'd like to. I will be monitoring to  
5
6
7
let in people, but I will also place a notice that we are on  
break for lunch until 12:30.  
8
9
(Off the record)  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: Good afternoon, everyone. Again,  
we're on the record for the public hearing for the Child  
Caring Institution Rules 2020-0398H. I am Mary Brennan, the  
regulatory affairs officer for Department of Health and  
Human Services, and am joined by our expert group, Kelly  
Maltby and Soleil Campbell, from the Department as well. If  
you would like to make a statement, either raise your hand  
or indicate on the record that you are ready to roll and I  
will take your statement accordingly. Marcy, you want to go  
off the record until we have a comment?  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you. It is now 2:57 p.m. I  
highly doubt we will have anybody jumping on in the next two  
to three minutes, so I am declaring this public hearing is  
Page 31  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1
over. If you think of any other questions or concerns,  
please join us a week from today at 9:00 o'clock for the  
2
3
second public hearing and you may always utilize the MDHHS  
admin rules e-mail box for any further thoughts or comments  
about the proposed rules.  
4
5
6
I want to thank you for sticking with me today.  
It wasn't as lively as I thought it was going to be, but,  
you know, you're all troupers and I truly appreciate it.  
Everyone enjoy their day and thank you again for your  
assistance with the public hearing.  
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
(Proceedings adjourned at 2:58 p.m.)  
-0-0-0-  
Page 32  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
1:9  
break 5:7 12:1 31:5 certainly 23:3  
32:4  
A
apply 10:7  
appreciate 17:10  
21:14 28:17 30:21 Brennan 1:10 2:3  
30:23 32:8  
approach 24:8  
area 20:5  
areas 22:14 23:11  
23:16,20  
arguing 11:25  
asked 5:3  
aspects 7:14  
assault 29:15  
assigned 19:21,22  
assist 20:3  
assistance 17:23  
32:10  
associate 6:17  
association 21:21  
23:1  
31:8  
breaks 5:5  
Certified 1:17  
challenge 14:23  
challenges 13:2,5  
changed 20:18  
changes 6:19,20,22  
6:24 7:3,23 8:4  
25:5 28:18,19  
30:19  
check 8:13 13:11  
14:19 15:7,7,21  
15:22,25 16:18,23 concerns 32:1  
checks 17:2 conditions 29:17  
child 1:5 3:12,19,21 conducive 18:15  
7:18,22 10:6,7,11 conduct 18:15 20:14  
12:7 13:2,11 14:6 Conference 1:6 3:1  
14:6 15:7,21,22  
20:10,11,15 21:1  
committee 6:21  
committees 20:7  
communities 29:12  
competing 23:23  
completed 13:9  
compliance 6:24  
19:5  
compromises 30:4  
computer 4:18  
12:10  
a.m 1:7 3:2,4,6  
ability 19:20 20:8  
able 10:10,12 18:16  
abuse 13:11 14:18  
15:7,21,22  
Academy's 7:9  
accommodates  
10:15  
accountability 19:1  
accountable 20:20  
achievement 29:25  
acronym 28:22  
act 14:12,13  
3:3,6,7,23 4:5  
5:19 6:5,8 8:6,9  
8:20,22 9:4,6,10  
9:25 10:3 11:9,11  
11:18,21,23 12:3  
12:5,15,17,20,23  
13:25 17:21 18:3  
18:6,9,14,20 19:7  
19:24,24 21:9,13  
21:16 22:4,12,21  
23:5,15,21 24:3  
24:14,23 27:20  
28:5,10 30:21  
acted 20:22  
action 3:21  
confidently 6:22  
conflict 27:23 29:14  
actions 20:17  
add 19:1 27:3  
adding 25:6  
addition 17:8  
adjourned 32:11  
adjustment 29:25  
admin 32:4  
administrative 1:10  
3:12 7:17 28:18  
AdminRules 5:16  
adopting 30:13  
adults 30:5,8  
31:2,4,10,12,21  
31:23  
24:25 25:19 28:25 confused 26:13  
bring 6:24  
broad 18:24 19:11  
29:2,18 30:2,14  
30:17 31:11  
confusing 26:11  
conscious 16:16  
consequence 29:10  
atmosphere 30:6  
automatically 20:20 brought 11:2  
child's 7:15  
available 5:13,15  
10:13  
Avenue 1:12  
average 29:1  
awhile 13:23 16:3  
19:16 26:9  
Brown 2:6 23:6,6,8  
children 7:13 18:16 consider 11:17  
23:9,18  
brutal 29:18  
bullying 29:15  
burdensome 13:18  
18:17 28:15,24  
29:1,5,12,22,25  
30:1,11,15  
CHILDREN'S 1:3  
citations 19:15  
cite 20:22  
29:19 30:8  
consideration 6:23  
8:3 30:19  
constitute 29:16  
consultants 19:12  
consulted 7:17  
C
advice 18:22  
B
call 4:17 5:22 21:10  
called 4:14  
clarification 14:5,25 CONTENTS 2:1  
21:23  
advocacy 7:2  
affairs 1:11 3:8  
31:13  
affirmative 23:5  
affirming 30:13  
afternoon 31:10  
agencies 3:22  
agency 1:3 15:15  
19:2,4 20:15,19  
20:24  
ago 15:23 26:9  
agree 27:20 28:5  
ahead 11:10 12:23  
alike 11:18  
allow 8:15 16:10  
27:1 28:2  
b 19:21 20:13  
contingent 17:16  
continue 8:13,15  
continuing 7:11  
continuously 15:9  
contracted 14:6,8  
14:13,22  
controlling 19:6  
convened 6:22  
convenience 4:8  
conversations 25:23  
cooking 22:14  
B-r-e-n-n-a-n 3:8  
back 8:13,18 9:8  
12:1,6,21 19:16  
24:3 25:13 26:12  
background 14:11  
Campbell 1:15 4:1,2  
6:3 10:2,4,23  
17:14 22:6 25:8  
26:10,15,18,23  
27:12 28:1 31:15  
clarity 19:1  
clear 27:2,3,16  
clearances 13:11  
14:21,24  
clearly 27:22  
closely 26:18  
code 22:24  
14:19 15:7,7 17:2 capacity 29:24  
based 28:14 30:22  
basically 15:20  
23:14  
began 7:9  
behalf 5:5  
care 8:10 10:9 18:17  
caregivers 7:16  
caring 1:5 3:12 7:22  
10:6,7,11 12:7  
13:2 14:6,6 20:15  
21:2 24:25 25:19  
29:18 30:14 31:12  
carpeting 23:10,13  
23:15  
collaborative 7:1  
color 29:18  
come 12:11 18:1  
19:25 24:10  
coming 19:11  
comment 4:13 5:21  
6:2,10 7:6 8:7,25  
cooperative 8:11  
copy 5:15,20  
Cornelius 7:8  
belief 7:10  
Benden 2:5 21:11  
21:12,15 22:5,17  
23:4  
Corporation 1:18  
9:7,11 12:9,13,25 correct 17:3,3 25:14  
allows 27:22  
best 6:25  
catch 12:20 25:9  
13:24 17:11 18:4  
21:9 23:16 25:9  
31:19  
county 23:7 28:25  
course 30:16  
court 9:18,22 10:13  
10:19,24 11:3  
26:6  
amendments 23:1  
amount 20:16  
answer 21:7,19  
22:16  
anticipated 23:12  
anybody 8:14 31:24  
APPEARANCES  
better 20:21,25 28:3 CCI 21:18,22  
bias 29:11  
biggest 13:5  
bit 20:1,25  
box 5:11,16 11:13  
32:4  
CCIs 7:24 8:2 14:13  
Center 6:17 28:14  
central 3:18  
CER 1:17  
comment's 23:21  
comments 4:19,20  
5:8,9 21:25 28:6  
28:21 30:22,24  
cover 11:7  
COVID 13:4  
certain 20:15  
Page 1  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
crew 17:5  
diverse 28:20,22  
29:2,3,5,9,22 30:1 exacerbates 30:2  
30:9,15  
Division 3:19  
document 4:7 13:9  
21:25  
everybody 3:17  
fit 17:17 20:25  
fits 18:25  
28:7 30:25 31:18  
critical 7:3,19  
current 16:24 23:16  
currently 22:24  
goal 30:16,16  
goes 8:16 20:21  
27:12  
exactly 11:15 15:19 five 14:16,17 15:22  
26:14  
examining 7:9  
example 15:3  
29:1  
fixed 27:1  
going 5:6 8:11,12  
11:11,16 17:6  
20:19,24 23:19,24  
25:11,13 32:7  
good 3:6,17 4:1,5  
6:7,8,15 8:19,22  
9:5,10 12:5 19:24  
24:5 25:9,9 30:23  
31:10  
D
Florida 15:4,6  
flush 17:22  
focused 26:3  
folks 13:6,19  
follow 9:19 22:15  
23:17,22  
following 7:6,7  
10:21 19:20 22:11  
24:24  
D-e-G-r-o-o-t 12:19  
daily 29:16  
day 32:9  
days 13:3,10,13,13  
13:15,16,17,22  
15:24 17:2,17  
DCW 20:12  
documentation 11:6 exception 25:2,20  
13:7 14:14  
documented 29:5  
doing 4:12 16:22  
doubt 31:24  
duties 19:19,20,22  
20:8,9  
27:14,14  
exceptions 25:23  
excluding 16:12  
executive 28:14  
experience 19:21  
20:9 29:12  
deal 23:3  
death 7:8  
expert 3:24 31:14  
expertise 22:9,22,25 food 22:13 23:11,15 government 15:1  
gosh 16:17  
E
decide 11:3 18:25  
decided 14:25  
decision 19:4  
decisions 7:18 29:21  
declaring 31:25  
deep 21:19,24 22:2  
22:3,4,14  
E 1:10  
experts 3:14  
explore 30:6  
express 28:18  
expression 28:21,23 forms 15:11,13  
extend 16:7,24  
external 10:21  
forgetting 5:25  
forgot 5:10  
form 17:3  
Grand 1:12  
grant 14:9  
e-mail 5:11,16 11:13  
15:9,12 18:23  
21:13 26:9 32:4  
easy 8:11  
effective 7:11 25:3  
25:21  
grateful 30:19  
great 11:18 17:25  
18:21 27:19  
group 31:14  
groups 7:1  
forth 25:13  
forward 9:6  
foster 3:21  
four 4:15  
Frederick 7:8  
French 2:4 6:6,7,11 guidelines 9:23 10:9  
6:12,14,16 8:8  
Friday 5:8 19:25  
fryers 21:19,24 22:2  
22:3,4,15  
F
defined 25:12  
definitely 16:2,2,23 either 13:21 31:16  
effects 30:12  
guess 9:16 11:4  
13:23 18:23,25  
F-r-e-n-c-h 6:14  
facilities 7:20,21,23  
7:25 14:22 24:18  
24:20 25:1,7,16  
26:2,21,25 27:17  
28:2  
17:20 21:3 22:10  
DeGroot 2:5 12:19  
12:24,25 14:2,8  
15:16 16:1,11,15  
17:7,12 18:5  
Electronic 1:17  
eliminated 13:21  
24:17,19  
elimination 8:1  
Ellis 28:14  
guys 8:10 11:20  
27:7  
H
Department 1:2,10  
1:11 3:9 4:3 13:7  
31:13,15  
depression 29:13  
detailed 7:6  
emergency 24:20  
25:2,12,20,23  
26:13  
emotional 29:20  
emphasize 7:6  
facility 26:4,5  
fact 20:7 25:10 26:3  
factors 29:19  
families 7:16 14:12  
28:16  
H.S 3:13  
half 10:16  
hand 4:14 5:22 6:5  
8:25 12:10 30:5  
31:16  
function 3:15,25  
further 5:9 16:25  
26:20 28:5 30:24  
32:4  
future 30:4  
detention 7:20  
develop 30:7  
development 7:15  
7:17  
developmental  
29:23  
DHHS 3:16  
DHS 23:7  
difference 17:9  
different 7:24 17:25 entry 4:9  
19:13 24:10  
director 28:14  
disciplinary 3:21  
discuss 16:5,23  
discussion 19:16  
20:5 26:2  
discussions 24:19  
25:4 27:9  
disrupt 4:21  
employee 13:1 14:2 family 7:14 10:17  
handle 3:19 22:10  
hands 5:23 8:9,14  
happen 20:24 21:2  
happens 29:11  
happiness 29:24  
G
15:4  
29:14  
far 20:14  
fashion 17:4  
employment 13:10  
15:1 17:16  
G-a-b-r-i-e-l-l-e  
6:13  
Gabrielle 2:4 6:6,7  
ended 25:22  
ends 5:8 30:20  
enjoy 32:9  
entire 16:18  
entities 14:23 18:1  
federal 14:9,25  
feel 10:19  
feeling 13:4 18:23  
feels 19:11  
6:11,12,16 8:7,7,8 happy 8:5 11:17  
garbage 23:23  
gender 28:21,23  
29:7 30:13  
generally 6:20  
getting 10:20  
girls 29:17  
15:11 21:4  
harassment 29:15  
harm 20:11 29:9  
harsh 29:16  
health 1:2,11 3:9  
4:3 21:18,20,20  
22:25 30:4 31:13  
healthy 29:25 30:8  
hear 16:4 20:2,3  
28:10  
felt 7:2  
final 16:21  
environmental  
finally 5:14  
21:18,20,23 22:19 find 10:1 23:12  
23:2  
finding 7:9 20:12  
fine 6:1  
fire 22:7,9,22,23,23 giving 15:24  
give 5:6,10 18:9  
given 30:20  
equipment 22:14  
equivalent 13:8  
error 25:18  
Firm 1:18  
go 3:4 4:8 8:17  
11:10,14 12:1,12  
12:23 13:15 16:6  
18:9 23:24,24  
escape 26:7  
especially 13:3,6  
17:25 23:20  
first 4:24 6:2,9,12  
7:7 12:17 14:12  
22:18  
hearing 1:4 3:11,14  
4:6,6,9,10,13,19  
4:20,21 5:8,11,15  
Page 2  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
8:12 9:17 16:25  
18:5 22:11 26:6  
31:11,25 32:3,10  
hearings 4:25 5:2  
held 5:2 20:17  
help 15:11,13 17:5  
18:2 25:5  
helps 30:11  
Hey 5:25  
Hi 6:7 9:4  
high 29:12  
Highland 28:15  
highlight 7:3  
highly 31:24  
hire 13:14,19 16:9  
hired 15:3 16:3  
hires 13:22 16:12  
hiring 13:3,6,12,16  
15:3 16:13,19  
hold 20:19 24:14  
holds 7:25  
homes 3:21 23:13  
23:19 29:11  
honestly 11:15 17:7 intricacies 18:1  
hope 11:6  
hopelessness 29:14  
hostile 30:1  
including 7:15  
increased 13:21  
indicate 12:11 31:17  
individual 19:2,6  
20:17  
Ingham 23:7  
inherent 29:24  
injury 24:22  
input 7:1 11:3 28:18  
inquire 23:10  
instability 30:3  
institution 7:22 10:6  
10:8 12:7 13:2  
14:6,7 20:15  
justice 4:2 6:18 7:2  
7:4,21,23 25:1,16 licensing 3:19 13:1  
26:2,5,21 licensure 7:9  
juvenile 4:2 7:19,23 lightly 6:23  
licensee 20:17  
17:21 19:24 23:6  
26:20 27:20 31:12  
matter 3:14  
maximizes 30:7  
7:25 25:1,16 26:1 line 13:8 26:17 27:5 MCYJ 7:2,8,19,25  
26:5,21 27:17  
31:6  
8:4  
link 5:13  
MDHHS 6:22 9:19  
9:23 10:9 32:3  
mean 15:19 16:5  
20:23 21:3 23:18  
27:7  
means 11:13 24:10  
meant 26:14  
measure 13:14,20  
mechanical 27:13  
27:22 28:2  
K
list 22:13 24:12  
little 17:7 20:1,25  
26:20 27:17  
live 29:8  
lived 14:16 15:4  
lively 32:7  
Keating 2:4 9:5,12  
9:13,16 10:17  
11:4,19 18:10,11  
18:12,19,21 19:9  
21:6  
keep 4:20  
living 30:12  
Kelly 1:15 3:16,18  
3:23 9:25 11:14  
14:4 17:14 20:2,6  
22:1 31:14  
31:12  
local 21:20 22:25  
long 15:1,5 16:7,8  
longer 16:13 17:1  
institutions 1:5 3:13  
10:12 21:2 24:25  
25:19 29:19 30:14  
integration 8:3  
intent 26:16  
interpretation  
19:13  
interrupt 5:25  
meet 18:16  
look 17:13,15 21:5,6 Melissa 2:4 9:4,5,10  
key 7:1  
kind 24:9  
26:18 27:18,21  
looking 9:13,18  
18:12  
9:12,13,16 10:17  
11:4,8,11,16,19  
18:9,10,11,12,19  
18:21 19:9 21:6  
kitchen 23:14  
Klingshirn 1:17  
know 5:14 6:3 8:18  
9:21 11:5,12 14:1  
14:20,20,22 15:10  
15:12,20,23,24  
16:5,7,9,25 20:10  
20:24 21:4,16  
22:17 23:18,20  
24:21 26:12 28:24  
32:8  
lose 3:25  
lot 15:14 17:19 20:7 member 6:21 18:14  
24:15  
Love 6:4  
loving 30:5  
Lucy 6:4  
Michigan 1:1,11,13  
3:9 4:3 6:17 14:13  
14:15,17 28:15  
30:17  
Michigan's 7:12  
mind 21:14  
introduce 3:14,15  
3:25  
invaluable 4:19  
investigation 18:25  
involved 7:4,14,21  
involving 3:12  
isolation 30:3  
issues 10:15 11:3  
13:12 21:1 30:20  
It'll 5:13  
housekeeping 4:7  
5:20 8:24 12:8  
huge 17:9  
Human 1:2,10,10  
1:11 3:9 4:3 13:8  
31:14  
lunch 5:7 31:8  
M
minds 11:18  
magic 21:7  
minute 8:13 23:24  
minutes 8:23 31:25  
missing 27:11  
monitoring 31:6  
morning 3:17 4:1  
6:7,8,15 8:16,22  
12:5  
move 8:18 9:6  
mulled 20:6  
mute 8:12 23:24  
muted 4:9  
knowing 17:16  
known 14:12 20:16  
making 10:12 18:2  
29:20  
Maltby 1:15 3:17,18  
11:8,10,15 14:4,4  
14:10 15:19 16:4  
16:14,20 17:10,13  
17:19,24 19:17  
20:5,6 22:3,8  
31:15  
L
I
idea 17:25  
ideas 22:1  
identified 25:24  
identify 5:4 13:25  
29:2  
identities 30:7  
identity 28:21,23  
29:7  
impact 7:18  
implementing 30:13 joined 8:23 12:6,8  
improved 7:13  
improvement 6:20  
inappropriate 20:10 Juli 2:6 24:5,6,7,15  
inappropriately  
20:22  
inaudible 25:6  
include 7:20  
included 8:1 28:20  
iterations 25:10,17  
lack 20:20  
J
Lakeside 7:9  
language 6:14 11:12  
11:16 19:7,23  
20:1,3,13,25 21:4  
25:5,11 27:23  
29:21 30:18  
JCAR 22:1  
Jerry 2:7 28:10,11  
28:12,13,13 30:21  
30:23  
Jerry's 30:22  
job 3:15 28:3  
join 32:2  
manager 1:10 3:18  
4:3  
N
Lansing 1:13  
LARA 22:22  
laundry 22:13  
leaving 7:3  
legislation 14:11  
15:17  
manner 14:24 18:15  
manual 17:23  
Marcy 1:17 3:4 4:11  
5:4,16 8:17 9:1,7  
12:12,20 18:6  
23:25 24:3 30:24  
31:18  
name 3:7,8,17 4:18  
5:3,4 6:9,12,13,16  
12:18  
nationally 6:25  
28:24 29:2  
necessarily 10:8  
20:23  
necessary 26:5,6  
31:14  
jot 5:13  
legit 15:23  
26:8,11,16,22  
27:5,24,25  
Juli's 24:23  
jumping 31:24  
June 1:7 3:2,7 5:9  
let's 3:3 28:10 30:24  
LGBTQ 28:15  
liability 20:16  
license 20:24  
marginalization  
29:10  
Mary 1:10 3:7 5:25 necessity 7:19  
6:3 11:10,16,22 need 7:7,14 11:2  
Page 3  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
29:6  
6:15 28:17  
order 5:22 9:19  
10:13,14,24  
order/treatment  
10:19  
orders 9:22  
organization 5:4 7:2 physically 20:11  
orientation 28:20,23 piece 25:25 27:12  
5:24 8:10,12  
12:11  
phones 4:9  
phrase 28:22  
physical 29:13,15  
29:20  
probably 13:17 17:5 quite 11:24 19:16  
needs 18:16  
negative 30:11  
neglect 14:19 15:7  
15:21,22  
Network 1:18 4:11  
new 19:23 26:23  
news 19:24  
18:24  
problem 16:1 21:15  
27:25  
R
R 25:3  
raise 4:13 5:22 8:25  
12:9 31:16  
raised 5:23  
rates 29:12  
re-run 13:16,18  
16:18  
proceed 6:9  
Proceedings 32:11  
process 4:7,20,21  
5:14 15:14 19:2  
program 4:2 22:22  
non-contracted  
14:7  
outlined 27:14  
outlines 29:21  
pieces 27:2  
place 4:6 8:12 19:17 prohibit 22:2  
read 10:17 20:19  
21:14 22:17 25:19  
26:9 27:6,17  
reading 18:23 22:19  
ready 31:17  
reality 29:16  
really 4:8 13:4,20  
14:23 16:16 17:8  
17:25 26:18 28:17  
30:3,7  
reason 15:24 26:1  
reasoning 21:17  
23:12  
reasons 16:13  
recall 25:4  
recognized 6:25  
recommend 16:20  
recommendation  
11:1  
recommendations  
6:19 7:5 8:4  
recommending  
10:21  
non-emergency 8:2 outside 22:9 23:2  
31:7  
prohibited 22:15  
23:11,15 25:3,21  
prohibition 21:18  
21:24  
promise 18:22  
promote 30:14  
proposed 7:23 8:4  
11:12,16 19:7  
20:3 30:18 32:5  
protect 30:11  
protection 10:14  
18:18  
protections 28:19  
prove 16:2  
provide 4:22 5:12  
9:11 10:12 13:20  
18:17 27:21 28:17  
30:6  
non-MDHHS 10:5  
non-secure 28:2  
overall 6:19  
oversee 3:20  
placement 29:6,20  
Placements 30:8  
Placing 30:1,4  
plan 7:16 8:1 9:20  
10:11,19  
noncompliance 19:5 oversight 7:7,11  
noon 5:7  
P
normal 5:18  
p.m 31:23 32:11  
PAGE 2:2  
note 17:22  
notice 31:7  
plans 9:24  
please 4:13,18 5:3  
5:16,22,24 6:9  
8:25 9:6,11 12:9  
12:18,23 18:6  
32:2  
point 15:10  
pointing 27:24  
points 7:6  
policies 30:13  
policy 6:17 7:18  
poor 19:4  
population 29:4,23  
position 19:21,22  
potential 30:7  
potentially 27:3  
practices 6:25 30:14 public 1:4 3:11 4:6  
pregnant 24:11  
prep 22:13  
parent 9:14  
number 1:18 3:13  
4:15 5:24 13:12  
23:10 24:13  
numbers 5:24  
nurtures 30:10  
parent/agency 9:20  
parental 10:25  
parenting 10:15,25  
11:2  
Park 28:15  
O
part 25:9,17  
participants 8:16  
particular 14:14  
15:6 25:5  
particularly 29:18  
29:22  
o'clock 5:1 31:4  
32:2  
obviously 10:7  
occurred 7:12  
offer 8:14 17:16  
office 3:18 4:2  
officer 1:11 3:9  
31:13  
provided 10:18,24  
17:2 21:21 23:1  
25:2,20  
parties 11:3  
passed 14:12  
patiently 24:7  
PATPs 9:24  
provides 13:13  
Officers 21:21  
record 3:11 8:17,21  
9:1,3,8 11:22 12:1  
12:3,4,6,12,16,21  
18:6,8,14 22:12  
23:25 24:2,3,23  
28:7,9 30:25 31:3  
31:9,11,17,19,22  
recorded 1:17 4:10  
23:22  
4:19,20,25 5:2,8  
5:11 7:6 8:11 9:17  
31:11,25 32:3,10  
purpose 25:14  
30:16  
oh 9:7 11:9,10 16:17 people 8:15 11:24  
22:8,8  
14:16 29:17 31:7  
percent 29:1  
percentage 29:4  
Perfect 18:3  
perform 19:20,21  
20:8,9  
period 16:7  
periodically 4:6  
permanency 30:15  
person 4:16 14:14  
15:1,3,4 16:9,22  
19:19  
person's 16:3 20:14  
personal 10:14  
pervasive 29:11  
Peterson 2:7 28:11  
28:12,13,13  
preparation 23:11  
23:16  
present 1:15 15:22  
okay 3:3,6 4:5 5:19  
8:9,12 9:10 10:3  
10:17 11:4 12:5  
12:23 14:10,10  
17:6,10 18:3,9,20  
21:6,16 22:21  
23:4,21 24:23  
26:8 28:11 30:22  
31:4  
older 23:13,19  
onboard 16:22  
once 14:24  
onerous 16:3  
operate 14:21  
operating 14:5  
opportunities 30:4  
opportunity 4:23  
presumptuous 5:17 purposes 4:10  
pretty 19:11 27:8  
prevent 26:6  
preventable 7:8  
prevention 14:12  
24:12  
previous 6:21 14:15  
14:17 21:22  
primarily 27:13  
28:1,16  
primary 30:16  
prior 13:10  
prioritize 30:9  
prioritizes 29:7  
pro- 16:15  
pushed 13:23  
put 10:14 26:24,25  
puts 19:4  
Recorder 1:17  
records 7:9 13:1  
14:3  
putting 15:17  
Q
qualification 19:15  
reduction 24:12  
qualifications 19:18 refer 4:15 5:23  
qualified 19:3  
question 21:16  
22:11 24:9  
questions 8:5,6  
22:20 30:22 32:1  
quickly 4:8  
reference 27:4,16  
referencing 18:18  
27:15 28:4  
referred 5:24  
referring 10:5 13:11  
24:24  
phone 4:15,18 5:23  
Page 4  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
regard 21:22 22:13  
28:6  
results 15:8  
return 17:2  
review 11:14 20:4  
Reynolds 2:6 24:4,5  
24:6,7,15 26:8,11 secured 26:5  
26:16,22 27:5,25  
right 6:14 10:1  
12:11 15:13,14,19  
15:21 16:4,4,14  
16:20 17:10 18:10  
19:15 20:21 21:7  
rights 10:25  
27:4  
South 1:12  
speak 4:16  
support 6:18 28:19  
30:18  
supporting 30:5  
supports 8:4  
supposed 25:18  
sure 10:4,13 13:13  
14:2 15:13,25  
16:11 17:5 24:8  
26:19 27:8  
sweat 11:24  
system 29:6 30:2,17  
systems 28:25 29:2  
secure 7:20,23  
24:17 25:1,16  
26:1,21,25 27:17  
regarding 9:20  
Registration 1:18  
regulation 13:19  
regulatory 1:11 3:8  
31:13  
reinforces 29:6  
rejection 29:10,11  
related 3:20 22:7  
25:25 26:4,23  
29:19  
SPEAKER 9:15  
speaking 5:5 14:1  
specifically 13:11  
28:19  
spell 5:3 6:8,9 12:17  
spelled 3:8 6:13,13  
staff 14:20 15:9  
18:14 19:17 20:8  
20:14,18,20,22  
21:1  
security 25:6  
see 4:15 6:5 8:13  
9:21 10:20 13:20  
19:13,14 21:1  
23:3  
seeing 6:4  
seek 21:23  
relatively 18:24  
remember 19:15  
remind 4:24  
risk 22:7  
rogue 20:21  
roll 31:17  
rule 5:12 6:18,20  
7:3,23 8:4 9:13  
10:1,16,23 11:12  
13:25 18:12 19:18 serve 28:15  
20:12,18,21 21:17 service 9:23 10:11  
send 11:13 21:7,25  
sense 9:23 17:19  
26:17 27:6 30:3  
sent 21:13 26:8  
sentence 24:16  
separated 7:24  
stakeholder 7:1  
standpoint 17:1  
start 3:16 13:10  
16:10  
started 3:3  
starting 5:1  
state 1:1,10 13:6,8  
14:7,9,15,16,17  
14:18,23,24 15:2  
15:4,6,10 16:9,12  
17:4 18:1 30:17  
statement 2:3,4,4,5  
2:5,6,6,7 4:16,17  
5:3 8:10 12:12  
28:10 30:20 31:16  
31:18  
T
T-a-r-a 12:19  
TABLE 2:1  
repeated 7:10  
replaces 19:23  
report 13:16,18  
REPORTER 3:5  
5:18 8:19 9:2,9  
11:22 12:2,14,22  
18:7 24:1 28:8  
31:1,20  
Reporting 1:18 4:12 rules 1:5 3:12,20 4:7 set 3:4 7:24  
represent 6:25  
28:22 29:3  
represented 28:25  
request 14:18 15:2,6  
16:8  
requesting 5:19  
11:6  
requests 18:2  
required 5:1 14:13  
22:24  
requirement 10:23  
13:7 15:18,20  
16:24  
requirements 7:22  
requiring 10:11,24  
resided 14:15  
residential 7:20  
respect 4:20  
respectable 4:21  
responsible 20:17  
restraint 24:11,20  
25:2,12,20,23  
26:13 28:2  
take 6:1 8:5 12:1  
13:23 16:13 17:1  
21:5 25:14,15  
26:17 27:2,16  
31:18  
taken 25:11  
talked 25:25  
talks 26:20  
Tara 2:5 12:18,19  
12:24,25 13:25  
14:2,8 15:16 16:1  
16:11,15 17:7,12  
18:3,5  
24:11 27:4,15  
28:18,19 29:21  
rulemaking 20:7  
Services 1:2,3,11,12  
3:10 4:4 13:8  
14:12 31:14  
5:20 6:21,24 7:17 settings 29:8 30:2  
7:25 8:24 10:6 severe 24:22  
12:7,9 13:1 17:18 sexual 28:20,23  
21:18,22,25 22:23  
22:23 27:6 28:6  
31:12 32:4,5  
run 13:5 14:9,21  
running 13:2,12  
rural 23:20  
29:14  
Shannon 2:6 23:6,6 states 15:14 17:1  
23:8,9,18  
shelter 14:9  
shoot 15:8,12 18:22 statutes 3:20  
shows 18:24  
significant 7:7,10  
sitting 19:9  
situations 7:13  
smaller 29:3  
smoother 15:14  
social 29:10,17  
society 30:12  
SOGIE 28:22 29:3,5 submit 15:11  
29:9,22 30:1,9,15 submitted 7:5  
Soleil 1:15 3:24,24  
3:25 4:2 9:25  
17:14 20:2 22:1  
25:5 31:15  
somebody 13:14  
16:19  
sorry 9:17 11:10  
12:20 21:8 23:23  
sort 15:17  
tasks 29:23  
team 10:21  
status 5:12  
statute 5:1  
technical 17:1,23  
tell 15:8 26:12  
telling 11:24  
temporarily 30:25  
tends 13:3  
stay 31:6  
Ruth 28:14  
steering 6:21  
sticking 32:6  
strange 27:18  
struggling 20:12  
stuck 10:20  
S
safe 16:9 30:6  
safety 7:12 10:15  
13:14,20 22:10,22  
22:23,23 26:6  
29:8,20 30:10,14  
saying 15:20 20:2,3  
22:3 23:14  
School 29:15  
schools 29:11  
scope 22:9 23:2  
scroll 26:20  
scrolling 8:23 12:8  
seclusion 8:1  
term 20:21  
terminated 11:1  
terms 13:14,19  
25:10  
testify 6:16,18  
testimony 4:22 5:12  
8:14,18 9:1 16:6  
30:22  
thank 3:5,23 5:18  
6:10,15 8:5,7,8,16  
8:19,20 9:1,2,11  
11:19,21 12:2,14  
12:15,22 17:12  
18:3,5,7 21:9  
22:17 23:4,17,22  
24:1 27:24 28:8  
28:11 30:21,23  
stuff 11:5  
subject 3:14 7:21,24  
substance 29:13  
sudden 16:16,17  
suffer 29:9  
suggestions 21:4  
27:19  
suicidality 29:13  
summary 30:18  
supervised 10:6  
19:3  
supervision 10:9  
18:17  
restraints 8:2 24:19  
24:25 25:19 26:3  
26:4 27:13,21  
restriction 10:14  
restrictions 26:24  
restricts 10:25  
second 7:13 9:7  
10:16 24:14 32:3  
section 21:20 22:18  
22:19 23:2,10  
sought 22:21  
sounds 8:19 24:17  
Page 5  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING I  
June 3, 2021  
31:1,2,20,21,23  
32:6,9  
Thanks 9:5 12:3  
18:10  
theirs 23:3  
things 3:19 16:21  
21:2 24:12  
trying 10:1 13:19  
19:9 24:16  
tweaking 27:18  
two 4:24 5:2,5,16,17 ways 21:2  
5:18,19 16:19  
27:6 31:24  
wants 8:14  
wasn't 24:8 32:7  
way 20:18 29:16  
28:16,20 29:9  
youth's 29:7 30:9  
youths 10:7 30:9  
Yup 17:13 26:22  
15:24 17:17 28:16  
30-day 15:17,20  
16:2,24  
30-minute 5:7  
31 13:16  
333 1:12  
we'll 3:16 8:14 21:6  
Z
23:3,22 28:7  
we're 10:20 12:6  
13:4 14:8 21:4  
27:15 30:19 31:11  
we've 19:12  
week 4:25 16:17  
32:2  
weeks 5:16,17,18,19  
16:19  
welcome 31:5  
welfare 3:19,21  
18:16 24:21,22  
28:25 29:2 30:2  
30:17  
went 26:12 27:1,9  
window 16:2  
wish 5:2  
Zoom 1:6 3:1 4:14  
type 10:5  
335-0745 1:13  
3rd 3:7  
think 9:25 11:18  
13:3,18 16:1  
0
U
4
0-0-0- 32:13  
Uh-huh 23:5  
unaccepting 30:12  
understand 15:16  
16:11 27:7  
understanding  
24:18 25:22  
understood 27:8  
UNIDENTIFIED  
9:15  
unique 29:23  
unmute 4:18  
unsafe 30:1  
update 11:12  
updates 21:22  
use 10:5,6 21:18,24  
22:2,14 26:4  
29:13  
19:10,14,15 20:2  
22:6,6 25:8,11,13  
25:17,18 26:8,18  
26:20 28:3,3 32:1  
thinking 19:12  
thought 19:2 24:16  
24:18 27:5,8 32:7  
thoughtful 6:23  
thoughts 32:4  
three 31:25  
40 13:17  
1
1 25:3  
1-800-632-2720  
1:19  
10 24:13  
10:00 5:6  
10:10 12:1  
112(7)(b) 18:13  
11th 5:9  
400.4113 13:1  
400.4160 25:3  
400.4437(6) 21:17  
4112 9:15  
4113 14:3  
4159 27:16  
4160 25:21 26:12  
27:15  
4161 26:19 27:15  
4437 22:13  
45 13:21  
thrive 30:8  
Thursday 1:7 3:2,7  
tie 20:14  
12 2:5  
12:00 5:7 31:4,5  
12:30 31:5,8  
122 9:13 10:1  
13 28:16  
15 8:23 17:2  
15-day 17:8  
15-minute 5:5 12:1  
159 24:11 27:4  
161 27:4  
48909 1:13  
tighten 19:8 27:23  
tightening 20:1,4  
time 3:13 4:16 8:5  
10:15,18,25 11:2  
11:23 16:7,19  
timely 14:24  
times 13:5,12 22:18  
today 3:11,24 4:25  
6:16 8:11,24 32:2  
32:6  
Tori 2:5 21:9,11,12  
21:13,15 22:5,15  
22:17 23:4  
Tori's 21:16  
total 29:4  
wishes 4:22  
wonder 27:13  
wonderful 4:11  
wondering 9:22  
17:15 18:25 23:9  
27:10  
word 18:21  
wording 24:9,11  
28:4  
work 13:15 18:22  
worked 11:24  
workers 9:19  
working 15:5 16:10  
wouldn't 17:22  
written 5:12 21:20  
wrong 21:3  
5
517 1:13  
59 27:21  
usually 19:14  
utilize 32:3  
6
6 2:4  
60 13:22 27:10  
61 27:10,22  
6924 1:17  
V
18 2:4  
1st 8:2 25:21  
verbal 29:15  
versus 13:16 19:2  
vicarious 20:16  
victimization 29:14  
Video 1:6 3:1  
views 29:7 30:9  
violations 7:10,11  
visitation 9:14,19,20  
visits 9:21 10:12  
VOL 1:4  
2
2 23:10  
2:00 5:6  
7
7 19:19 20:13  
7(a) 20:13  
2:57 31:23  
2:58 32:11  
20 8:23 29:1  
2020-039 3:13  
2020-0398H 31:12  
2020-39 12:7  
2021 1:7 3:2,7  
2022 8:2 25:3,21  
21 2:5  
23 2:6  
24 2:6  
28 2:7  
29 13:14  
totally 27:20  
tragic 7:8  
train 19:3  
8
wrote 23:1  
8151 1:18  
X
vulnerability 29:4  
vulnerable 29:23  
transcribing 4:12  
transcript 5:15  
transcription 4:10  
transgender 29:17  
transparency 4:11  
transport 26:4  
trauma 30:3  
treatment 7:15,16  
9:20  
trouble 13:9,22  
troupers 32:8  
truck 23:23  
9
9 2:4  
9:00 1:7 5:1 32:2  
9:06 3:2,4,6  
9:55 11:23  
Y
W
yeah 9:13 10:23  
11:4 16:1 17:19  
18:19 21:15 22:5  
22:8,12,21 28:1  
year 13:15  
years 14:16,17  
15:23 19:12 20:12  
young 29:17  
wait 5:16 9:7  
waiting 24:7  
want 5:13 6:1,1 8:17  
12:17 15:25 23:24  
27:7 31:18 32:6  
wanted 5:10 12:25  
14:5 20:25  
3
3 1:7 2:3 3:2  
30 13:10,13,13  
wanting 10:22  
25:15  
youth 6:18 7:2,4,14  
7:21 24:11,11,22  
truly 30:23 32:8  
Page 6  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN  
SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY,  
PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
Prepared by  
depos@networkreporting.com  
Phone: 800.632.2720  
Fax: 800.968.8653  
www.networkreporting.com  
Let us assist you GLOBALLY for all of your deposition needs.  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES  
CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY  
PUBLIC HEARING - VOL. II  
RULES FOR CHILD CARING INSTITUTIONS  
via Zoom Video Conference  
Thursday, June 10, 2021, 9:00 a.m.  
APPEARANCES:  
For the Department of MS. MARY E. BRENNAN  
Human and Human  
Services:  
State Administrative Manager and  
Regulatory Affairs Officer  
Michigan Department of Health and Human  
Services  
333 South Grand Avenue  
Lansing, Michigan 48909  
(517) 335-0745  
Also Present:  
RECORDED BY:  
Kelly Maltby, Soleil Campbell  
Marcy A. Klingshirn, CER 6924  
Certified Electronic Recorder  
Network Reporting Corporation  
Firm Registration Number 8151  
1-800-632-2720  
Page 34  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
TABLE OF CONTENTS  
2
3
PAGE  
Statement by Ms. Brennan . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  
Statement by Ms. Jeana Koerber, Ph.D. . . . . . . .  
Statement by Mr. Mark McWilliams . . . . . . . . . .  
Statement by Mr. Brian Philson . . . . . . . . . . .  
36  
38  
42  
48  
4
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
Page 35  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
Via Zoom Video Conference  
2
3
Thursday, June 10, 2021 - 9:05 a.m.  
MS. BRENNAN: Good morning, everyone. It is now  
9:05 a.m. on Thursday, June 10th, 2021. My name is Mary  
Brennan. I am the regulatory affairs officer for the  
Department of Health and Human Services. We are on the  
record for the second of two public hearings for the  
administrative rules involving 2020-039 HAS, Child Caring  
Institutions.  
4
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
I'd like at this time to introduce our subject  
matter experts. If they can introduce themselves and their  
job role at DHHS? You want to start with Kelly?  
MS. MALTBY: Hi. I'm Kelly Maltby. I am a  
manager with the Division of Child Welfare Licensing in  
central office.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you, Kelly. Soleil?  
MS. CAMPBELL: Good morning, everyone. This is  
Soleil Campbell, Juvenile Justice Program office manager in  
central office with Childrens Services Agency.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you, Soleil. Throughout the  
hearing I'm going to have the housekeeping rules running.  
Very briefly, all phones are on mute. The hearing will be  
recorded for purposes of transcription and transparency. We  
have our marvelous Marcy today who will be taking  
transcription. If you want to raise your hand to make a  
Page 36  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
statement, I will call on you. And I don't see anybody who  
has called in just by phone, so I think we're fine on that.  
2
3
One person shall speak at a time. When you'd like to make a  
statement, you can unmute your computer or phone. We  
respect the public hearing process. Please keep comments  
respectful and do not disrupt hearing process for all.  
Everyone will be given the opportunity to provide testimony  
if you wish. You will be asked your name, spell your last  
name, maybe your first, and identify what organization if  
any you're speaking on behalf of.  
4
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
Two 15-minute breaks, 10:00 and 2:00, one  
30-minute break at 12:00 noon for lunch. There is the e-  
mail address for the public comment. It ends tomorrow,  
Friday, June 11th. The rule status is available at the  
citation listed, or the link listed. And finally if you  
would like a copy of the hearing transcript, that is the e-  
mail box to request and please wait at least two weeks  
before requesting a copy.  
So without further ado, is there anybody that  
would like to make a statement at this time? Okay. Megan,  
I see that you've joined. If you would like to make a  
statement, you can raise your hand and I'll take your  
testimony. Good morning to those of us -- to those of you  
have just joined. If you'd like to make a statement, please  
raise your hand and testimony is now being taken.  
Page 37  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
Okay. It's now 9:11. We're going to go off  
2
3
record at this time until such time there is public  
testimony to take. Marcy, can you take us off the record?  
REPORTER: Yes. Thank you.  
4
5
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
6
(Off the record)  
7
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Very good. Is it Jeana  
(pronouncing)?  
8
9
DR. JEANA KOERBER: Hello. It's Jeana Koerber.  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: Good morning. If you'd like to make  
a statement, please go ahead.  
JEANA KOERBER, Ph.D.  
DR. JEANA KOERBER: Yes. We have a statement that  
we'll also submit in writing, so I will just read an excerpt  
and then we will also submit it in writing for you as well.  
So thank you for having us here. My name is Dr.  
Jeana Koerber. I'm the executive director of Autism  
Services at the Great Lakes Center for Autism Treatment and  
Research. And we have two child caring institutions located  
in Kalamazoo County, Michigan. Also, off screen is Calvin  
Gage, our clinical director of Autism Services, who's also  
here with me.  
So first we commend the Department for the many  
improvements to the rules that govern child caring  
institutions in the state of Michigan that are contained in  
Page 38  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
the proposed rules; most notably, a focus on LGBTQ plus  
youth and to further ensure seclusion and restraint are only  
2
3
used in emergency circumstances. Unfortunately, there seems  
to be a disproportionate focus on youth who may reside in  
child caring institutions as a result of placement in the  
foster care system. The proposed rules do not adequately  
address youth who may reside in a child caring institution  
due to extenuating circumstances resulting from a  
developmental disability. Youth may be placed in child  
caring institutions by community mental health entities if  
the facility only serves youth diagnosed with developmental  
disabilities. While we recognize these facilities are not  
plentiful in the state of Michigan, they represent a crucial  
service to this population, most notably for youth with a  
diagnosis of Autism.  
4
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
Individuals diagnosed with Autism can often engage  
in challenging behaviors that cause harm to themselves or  
others. While we recognize that our program -- the Great  
Lakes Center for Autism Treatment and Research -- is  
uniquely designed to care for individuals who engage in the  
most severe forms of these behaviors, there are other child  
caring institutions that also support youth with autism or  
similar developmental disabilities who have challenges  
residing in their familial home for a period of time. There  
are several proposed rules that would make it very difficult  
Page 39  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
for providers, and potentially impossible for some  
2
3
providers, to continue to provide services to this  
vulnerable population of youth in Michigan. Without child  
caring institutions that can serve this population, these  
youth will be "caught" in the state's emergency rooms or  
psychiatric placements. Other youth may be sent out of  
state for the care they require, further separating them  
from their families. As this is already happening at an  
4
5
6
7
8
9
alarming rate, we cannot further limit providers' ability to  
provide care to this group of children.  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
When youth are placed in a child caring  
institution through a community mental health placement,  
facilities are required to follow the Michigan Mental Health  
Code and rules set forth through MDHHS Behavioral Health and  
Developmental Disabilities Standards. Child caring  
institutions are also required to follow Act 116 of 1973 for  
Child Care Organizations. We implore the authors of these  
rules to cross-reference the documents linked at the end of  
this document to ensure that definitions are consistent and  
to collaborate with the Behavioral Health and Developmental  
Disabilities Department at MDHHS lead by director, Allen  
Jansen. This will ensure providers are not placed in a  
situation of either following Act 116 or the MDHHS  
Behavioral Health and Developmental Disabilities Standards  
at the risk of violating a child caring institution  
Page 40  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
licensing rule, or vice versa. For ease, rules that we have  
2
3
identified as areas of conflict with Act 116 or the MDHHS  
Behavioral Health and Developmental Disabilities Standards  
are detailed below.  
4
5
We've also noted other rules, that while written  
with positive intent, may be quite difficult for providers  
to comply with. We have noted those rules and potential  
barriers to implementation in a separate section below.  
We appreciate the time and effort the authors of  
the proposed rules have already invested in this process.  
We are confident that our comments will be taken seriously  
and implemented in these rules so we can ensure a strong  
provider network for our most vulnerable children with  
developmental disabilities. If any further information or  
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
insight would be helpful, we're happy to discuss or provide  
additional input into this important endeavor. Our contact  
information is provided below.  
In the document that we'll submit, I have linked  
references to Act 116 and MDHHS Behavioral Health and  
Developmental Disabilities Standards as well as provided the  
contact information for both myself and Mr. Gage. And then  
I also have a detailed chart going through the rules that  
are in conflict with Act 116 or the MDHHS Behavioral Health  
and Developmental Disabilities Standards, as well as those  
that we found may pose some challenges to implementation and  
Page 41  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
some potential solutions to that implementation barrier.  
MS. BRENNAN: Jeana, thank you very much for that  
2
3
thorough commentary and I look forward to seeing the written  
testimony as well.  
4
5
DR. JEANA KOERBER: All right. Well, thank you so  
much for this opportunity.  
6
7
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
8
DR. JEANA KOERBER: Bye-bye.  
9
MS. BRENNAN: Bye-bye. Is there anyone who would  
like to make another statement at this time? Please raise  
your hand or just shout it out there. Mark? Please  
proceed. Can you still -- I'm sorry. Can you give your  
name for the record and then proceed with your testimony?  
Thank you.  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MARK MCWILLIAMS  
MR. MARK MCWILLIAMS: All right. Thank you very  
much, Mary. My name is Mark McWilliams, M-a-r-k  
M-c-W-i-l-l-i-a-m-s. I am the director of public policy and  
media relations at Disability Rights Michigan.  
We are the private, nonprofit, nonpartisan  
protection and advocacy agency serving people with  
disabilities in Michigan. Our mission includes advocacy and  
monitoring of child caring institutions to address the needs  
of youth with disabilities in those places.  
DRM supports many of the proposed changes in the  
Page 42  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
proposed regulations, including: Planning to reduce and  
2
3
eliminate the use of restraint and seclusion in Section  
159(1); the immediate ban on particularly dangerous and  
4
noxious forms of restraint in Section 159(2) and 159(3); the  
May 1st, 2022 ban on nonemergency restraint in Section  
159(10); the narrowed list definition of emergency restraint  
in Section 160; and, the process and the May 1st, 2022, ban  
on seclusion in Section 162. And we will provide this also  
in written comments that we'll submit tomorrow.  
We think these changes are long overdue and  
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
consistent with the recommendations from the Annie E. Casey  
Foundation. Unfortunately, the regulations do not reference  
or address other important Casey Foundation recommendations.  
These recommendations call for broad cultural change,  
authentic engagement of youth and families, and  
disaggregated data reporting. Other than a broad staff  
training requirement, there are no outcome-based or  
transparent requirements for any of these activities in the  
regulations.  
Further, much of the success of the state's  
efforts to eliminate restraint and seclusion from these  
facilities rests on the state itself. The Casey Foundation  
recommends the state drive cultural change, develop and  
enforce contract performance standards, collect and report  
data, monitor and oversee performance, pre-approve  
Page 43  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
outsourcing, enforce active case management, create a  
2
3
specialized oversight team to support change, and enforce  
rules (particularly with regard to repeat offenders and  
serious violations). The rules have no reference to these  
state roles as they relate to CCIs and their compliance.  
4
5
6
The most recent report of the Dwayne B. settlement  
monitor highlights the inadequacy of current state  
corrective actions, despite over a decade of court  
oversight.  
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
The monitoring team found -- to quote from the  
report,  
"The monitoring team found that the (CCI  
corrective action plan) content and follow-up was often  
ineffective and deficient, lacked specificity, and did  
not remediate risk to children. Frequently repeated  
violations of serious nature, such as physical  
intervention or improper restraints causing injuries,  
recurred despite the corrective action plans, and at  
times they did not address prevalent underlying issues  
that posed a serious risk of harm to children's  
safety."  
The Department acknowledged these issues in  
September 2020, recognizing the clear "need to expedite  
adverse licensing action in response to repeat  
non-compliance or safety violations," but the proposed rules  
Page 44  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
lack clear, transparent standards and procedures to ensure  
accountability and enforcement. Absent adequate state  
2
3
oversight, there is no assurance that a future tragedy will  
be prevented.  
4
5
Finally, the Casey Foundation report concludes, in  
order to best serve youth and the community and prevent  
tragedy in the future, the long-term trajectory of this  
system is to downsize. There is no regulation in the  
proposed rules that governs facility size and no process for  
downsizing large programs.  
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
In short, while the rules have significant  
positive elements, they still do not address several issues  
of importance. These issues should be the subject of  
additional rulemaking.  
Thank you for the opportunity to comment. Please  
contact me in our Lansing office for more information.  
Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you, Mark. I look forward to  
the written testimony on this as well. And thank you for  
your organization. I have worked with you guys for over  
five years right now and thank you for all the work you do  
on behalf of those children that really need your support  
and guidance.  
Is there anyone else who would like to make a  
statement at this time? Okay. Very good. Marcy, let's go  
Page 45  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
off the record until we have a request to provide more  
testimony.  
2
3
REPORTER: Are we on that 10:00 o'clock break?  
MS. BRENNAN: Sure. We can go on break, 15  
4
5
minutes. Let us reconvene at 10:21, please.  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
6
7
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
8
9
MS. BRENNAN: Good morning, everyone. We're back  
on the record on the Child Caring Institution Administrative  
Rules 2020-39 HS. My name is Mary Brennan. I'm the  
regulatory affairs officer for Department of Health and  
Human Services. Our subject matter experts this morning and  
this afternoon, Kelly Maltby from the Division of Child  
Welfare Licensing and Soleil Campbell from the Juvenile  
Justice Services. If you would like to make comment, you  
can raise your hand or take yourself off mute and indicate  
that you would like to make a comment. Okay. Very good.  
Marcy, you want to take us off the record until another --  
or there's more testimony to be provided?  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. It's almost 12:00 o'clock, so  
we're going to take a half an hour break. We will resume at  
Page 46  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
12:30 with this public hearing. Enjoy your lunch and hope  
to see you then. Thank you. Marcy, off the record, please.  
2
3
REPORTER: Thank you.  
4
(Off the record)  
5
MS. BRENNAN: Good afternoon. It is almost 12:30.  
We are back on the record with regard to Child Caring  
Institution Rules 2020-39 HS. My name is Mary Brennan,  
regulatory affairs officer from Department of Health and  
Human Services, and I am joined by our subject matter  
experts, Kelly Maltby from the Division of Child Welfare  
Licensing and Soleil Campbell from Juvenile Justice  
Services, for this hearing.  
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
If anyone would like to make a statement, you can  
raise your hand or unmute yourself and indicate you would  
like to make a statement going forward. Otherwise, we are  
going to go off the record until such time we have further  
testimony. So, Marcy, let's give it a minute and if nobody  
would like to testify and then we can go off the record.  
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: Hey, Brian, I noticed you just  
joined us. I am sharing with you procedure for the public  
hearing. In case you would like to make a statement, just  
let me know.  
REPORTER: Brian, you're on mute.  
MR. BRIAN PHILSON: Sorry about that. Am I the  
Page 47  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
only one in the hearing right now that's not like ready to  
make a comment or anything?  
MS. BRENNAN: You are not. If you are ready to --  
2
3
4
whenever you are ready, let's put it this way, you can make  
a comment if you wish to do so. We do have people who are  
public hearing observers. And whatever you feel like doing,  
or most comfortable, and we also have the option of written  
testimony to the e-mail box.  
5
6
7
8
9
MR. BRIAN PHILSON: All right. So just let me  
clarify. This is no dialogue, I just make a comment;  
correct?  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: There is dialogue. We have two  
subject matter experts: We have Kelly Maltby from the  
Division of Child Welfare Licensing and we also have Soleil  
Campbell from Juvenile Justice Services. Clarification,  
questions, that's why they're here.  
MR. BRIAN PHILSON: Okay. So I do have -- is this  
fire safety or just, you know, non-fire safety rules?  
MS. BRENNAN: Fire safety were included in the  
Child Caring Institution rules and if you do have a question  
with regard to those, please place it on the record. If  
there are any issues, I could always check with our fire  
safety expert over at LARA.  
BRIAN PHILSON  
MR. BRIAN PHILSON: So do I have one question  
Page 48  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
specific to that. Previously the interpretation had been if  
a housing unit had been left vacant -- and I forget the  
2
3
exact period of time before it -- and if it was going to be  
put back into use, it then would have to comply with new  
construction including being sprinkled. And that had been a  
previous ruling and we had expended probably $40,000 to make  
that happen, and then I served on a subcommittee with Patty  
Needman (phonetic) and, you know, the CCI fire safety rules  
guru and it was our recommendation that that rule would not,  
you know, be placed -- or that it was going to be changed.  
You know, and as an example, I mean, we have 24 out of 36  
beds being used, but if we needed to re-open that third  
house, would I then have to expend, you know, 40,- to  
$50,000 to have that house sprinkled again?  
4
5
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: That is a good question and I am not  
going to answer for lack of experience in that. I will send  
it to, yes, the fire safety guru, Jerry, and I will have  
a -- the response that he provides to me, I will add that to  
DHHS's response to public hearing comment and you can review  
that. And if you would also like to place it in writing  
with your e-mail address, I'd be happy to provide you an  
e-mail of what Jerry's response is.  
MR. BRIAN PHILSON: That would be great. And  
Jerry served on that same subcommittee and, you know, I  
just -- you know, the subcommittee fell off the radar for a  
Page 49  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
variety of reasons, COVID, yada, yada, et cetera, and, but I  
just don't know what recommendations got passed forward and  
included.  
2
3
4
MS. BRENNAN: Well, I can tell you that Jerry was  
5
working with us extensively on the rewrite of the rules. We  
had rescinded a whole bunch of them due to newer fire  
inspection requirements by law. And everything in the  
current rules is what Jerry himself has updated. So if  
there's clarification with regard to any of the particular  
rules, Jerry would be happy to assist you on that.  
MR. BRIAN PHILSON: All right. Thank you.  
MS. BRENNAN: Sure. And if you want to stick  
around if you come up with any other questions, just please  
let us know.  
6
7
8
9
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MR. BRIAN PHILSON: All right. Thanks, Mary.  
MS. BRENNAN: Thanks.  
REPORTER: Mary, are we off the record?  
MS. BRENNAN: Yes, we are. Thank you, Marcy.  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. It's almost 2:00 o'clock.  
Let's say we take a 15-minutes or let's just return this  
meeting or public hearing, we'll reconvene at 2:15. Thank  
you. Marcy, off the record.  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
Page 50  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
1
(Off the record)  
MS. BRENNAN: We're back on the record. 2020-039  
2
3
HS, Child Caring Institution Administrative Rules. Anyone  
would like to comment, please raise your hand or unmute  
yourself and indicate that you would like to make a comment.  
Marcy, we'll give it a minute and then we can go off the  
record if nobody would like to make a comment at this time.  
REPORTER: Thank you.  
4
5
6
7
8
9
(Off the record)  
10  
11  
12  
13  
14  
15  
16  
17  
18  
19  
20  
21  
22  
23  
24  
25  
MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Very good. It is almost 2:45  
p.m. I do not anticipate any rush of the further comments.  
I want to thank you all for being on this call. I want to  
thank Kelly and Soleil for their assistance at being ready  
to answer and tackle any questions. Again, if there are any  
issues or comments that you forgot to make, please send them  
to the admin rules e-mail box. And have a great day and,  
again, thank you for all of your support. It is 2:45 p.m.  
We are now concluding the public hearing regarding 2020-39  
HS, Child Caring Institutions. Thank you, everyone.  
(Proceedings concluded at 2:45 p.m.)  
-0-0-0-  
Page 51  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
available 37:14  
Avenue 34:13  
51:3,19  
comments 37:5  
41:11 43:9 51:11  
51:15  
community 39:10  
40:12 45:6  
compliance 44:5  
comply 41:7 49:4  
computer 37:4  
concluded 51:20  
despite 44:8,18  
A
case 44:1 47:22  
Casey 43:11,13,22  
45:5  
caught 40:5  
cause 39:17  
causing 44:17  
CCI 44:12 49:8  
CCIs 44:5  
Center 38:18 39:19 concludes 45:5  
central 36:15,19  
CER 34:18  
Certified 34:18  
cetera 50:1  
challenges 39:23  
41:25  
challenging 39:17  
change 43:14,23  
44:2  
changed 49:10  
changes 42:25 43:10 contained 38:25  
chart 41:22  
check 48:22  
child 34:5 36:8,14  
38:19,24 39:5,7,9 contract 43:24  
detailed 41:4,22  
develop 43:23  
developmental 39:9  
39:11,23 40:15,20  
40:24 41:3,14,20  
41:24  
DHHS 36:12  
DHHS's 49:19  
diagnosed 39:11,16  
diagnosis 39:15  
dialogue 48:10,12  
difficult 39:25 41:6  
director 38:17,21  
40:21 42:18  
disabilities 39:12,23  
40:15,21,24 41:3  
41:14,20,24 42:22  
42:24  
disability 39:9  
42:19  
a.m 34:7 36:2,4  
ability 40:9  
Absent 45:2  
accountability 45:2  
acknowledged  
44:22  
Act 40:16,23 41:2  
41:19,23  
action 44:13,18,24  
actions 44:8  
active 44:1  
activities 43:18  
add 49:18  
additional 41:16  
45:14  
address 37:13 39:7  
42:23 43:13 44:19  
45:12 49:21  
adequate 45:2  
adequately 39:6  
admin 51:16  
administrative  
34:11 36:8 46:10  
51:3  
B
B 44:6  
back 46:9 47:6 49:4  
51:2  
ban 43:3,5,7  
barrier 42:1  
barriers 41:8  
beds 49:12  
concluding 51:18  
Conference 34:6  
36:1  
confident 41:11  
conflict 41:2,23  
consistent 40:19  
43:11  
construction 49:5  
contact 41:16,21  
45:16  
behalf 37:10 45:22  
Behavioral 40:14,20  
40:24 41:3,19,23  
behaviors 39:17,21  
best 45:6  
box 37:17 48:8  
51:16  
break 37:12 46:3,4  
46:25  
breaks 37:11  
Brennan 34:11 35:3  
36:3,5,16,20 38:5  
38:7,10 42:2,7,9  
45:18 46:4,7,9,11  
46:22,24 47:5,7  
47:20 48:3,12,19  
49:15 50:4,12,16  
50:18,21 51:2,10  
Brian 35:5 47:20,24  
47:25 48:9,17,24  
48:25 49:23 50:11  
50:15  
content 44:13  
CONTENTS 35:1  
continue 40:2  
disaggregated  
43:16  
discuss 41:15  
disproportionate  
39:4  
39:21 40:3,11,15  
40:17,25 42:23  
46:10,14 47:6,10  
48:14,20 51:3,19  
children 40:10  
41:13 44:15 45:22 County 38:20  
children's 34:3  
44:20  
copy 37:16,18  
Corporation 34:19  
correct 48:11  
corrective 44:8,13  
44:18  
ado 37:19  
disrupt 37:6  
adverse 44:24  
advocacy 42:21,22  
affairs 34:12 36:5  
46:12 47:8  
afternoon 46:14  
47:5  
agency 34:3 36:19  
42:21  
ahead 38:11  
alarming 40:9  
Allen 40:21  
Annie 43:11  
answer 49:16 51:14  
anticipate 51:11  
anybody 37:1,19  
APPEARANCES  
34:10  
Division 36:14  
46:14 47:10 48:14  
document 40:19  
41:18  
documents 40:18  
doing 48:6  
downsize 45:8  
downsizing 45:10  
Dr 38:9,13,16 42:5  
42:8  
court 44:8  
COVID 50:1  
create 44:1  
briefly 36:22  
broad 43:14,16  
bunch 50:6  
Childrens 36:19  
circumstances 39:3 cross-reference  
39:8  
40:18  
Bye-bye 42:8,9  
citation 37:15  
clarification 48:15  
50:9  
clarify 48:10  
clear 44:23 45:1  
clinical 38:21  
Code 40:14  
collaborate 40:20  
collect 43:24  
come 50:13  
comfortable 48:7  
commend 38:23  
comment 37:13  
45:15 46:16,18  
48:2,5,10 49:19  
51:4,5,7  
crucial 39:13  
cultural 43:14,23  
current 44:7 50:8  
drive 43:23  
DRM 42:25  
due 39:8 50:6  
Dwayne 44:6  
C
call 37:1 43:14  
51:12  
called 37:2  
Calvin 38:20  
Campbell 34:16  
36:17,18 46:15  
47:11 48:15  
care 39:6,20 40:7,10  
40:17  
caring 34:5 36:8  
38:19,24 39:5,7  
39:10,22 40:4,11  
40:15,25 42:23  
46:10 47:6 48:20  
D
dangerous 43:3  
data 43:16,25  
day 51:16  
E
E 34:11 43:11  
e- 37:12,16  
e-mail 48:8 49:21,22  
51:16  
appreciate 41:9  
areas 41:2  
asked 37:8  
decade 44:8  
deficient 44:14  
definition 43:6  
definitions 40:19  
Department 34:2,11 effort 41:9  
34:12 36:6 38:23 efforts 43:21  
40:21 44:22 46:12 either 40:23  
assist 50:10  
ease 41:1  
assistance 51:13  
assurance 45:3  
authentic 43:15  
authors 40:17 41:9  
autism 38:17,18,21  
39:15,16,19,22  
47:8  
designed 39:20  
Electronic 34:18  
elements 45:12  
commentary 42:3  
Page 1  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
eliminate 43:2,21  
emergency 39:3  
40:5 43:6  
endeavor 41:16  
ends 37:13  
foster 39:6  
found 41:25 44:10  
44:12  
Foundation 43:12  
43:13,22 45:5  
47:1,12,22 48:1,6  
49:19 50:23 51:18 institutions 34:5  
hearings 36:7  
Hello 38:9  
helpful 41:15  
Hey 47:20  
Hi 36:13  
highlights 44:7  
home 39:24  
47:7 48:20 51:3  
LARA 48:23  
large 45:10  
law 50:7  
36:9 38:19,25  
39:5,10,22 40:4  
40:16 42:23 51:19 left 49:2  
intent 41:6  
interpretation 49:1  
intervention 44:17  
introduce 36:10,11  
invested 41:10  
involving 36:8  
issues 44:19,22  
45:12,13 48:22  
51:15  
lead 40:21  
enforce 43:24 44:1,2 Frequently 44:15  
let's 45:25 47:17  
48:4 50:22,22  
LGBTQ 39:1  
licensing 36:14 41:1  
44:24 46:15 47:11  
48:14  
enforcement 45:2  
engage 39:16,20  
engagement 43:15  
Enjoy 47:1  
ensure 39:2 40:19  
40:22 41:12 45:1  
entities 39:10  
et 50:1  
Friday 37:14  
further 37:19 39:2  
40:7,9 41:14  
43:20 47:16 51:11 hope 47:1  
future 45:3,7  
hour 46:25  
house 49:13,14  
housekeeping 36:21  
housing 49:2  
HS 46:11 47:7 51:3  
51:19  
Human 34:2,11,11  
34:12 36:6 46:13  
47:9  
limit 40:9  
link 37:15  
G
Gage 38:21 41:21  
give 42:12 47:17  
51:6  
linked 40:18 41:18  
list 43:6  
listed 37:15,15  
located 38:19  
long 43:10  
long-term 45:7  
look 42:3 45:18  
lunch 37:12 47:1  
exact 49:3  
J
example 49:11  
excerpt 38:14  
executive 38:17  
expedite 44:23  
expend 49:13  
expended 49:6  
experience 49:16  
expert 48:23  
experts 36:11 46:13  
47:10 48:13  
extensively 50:5  
extenuating 39:8  
given 37:7  
Jansen 40:22  
Jeana 35:4 38:7,9,9  
38:12,13,17 42:2  
42:5,8  
Jerry 49:17,24 50:4  
50:8,10  
Jerry's 49:22  
job 36:12  
joined 37:21,24 47:9 M-c-W-i-l-l-i-a-m-s  
47:21  
June 34:7 36:2,4  
37:14  
Justice 36:18 46:16  
47:11 48:15  
Juvenile 36:18  
go 38:1,11 45:25  
46:4 47:16,18  
51:6  
going 36:21 38:1  
41:22 46:25 47:15 identified 41:2  
47:16 49:3,10,16  
good 36:3,17 37:23  
38:7,10 45:25  
46:9,18 47:5  
I
M
identify 37:9  
II 34:4  
M-a-r-k 42:17  
immediate 43:3  
implementation  
41:8,25 42:1  
implemented 41:12  
implore 40:17  
importance 45:13  
important 41:16  
43:13  
impossible 40:1  
improper 44:17  
improvements  
38:24  
inadequacy 44:7  
included 48:19 50:3  
includes 42:22  
including 43:1 49:5  
indicate 46:17 47:14  
51:5  
42:18  
49:15 51:10  
mail 37:13,17  
Maltby 34:16 36:13  
36:13 46:14 47:10  
48:13  
govern 38:24  
governs 45:9  
Grand 34:13  
great 38:18 39:18  
49:23 51:16  
F
facilities 39:12  
40:13 43:22  
facility 39:11 45:9  
familial 39:24  
families 40:8 43:15  
feel 48:6  
fell 49:25  
finally 37:15 45:5  
fine 37:2  
fire 48:18,19,22  
49:8,17 50:6  
Firm 34:19  
first 37:9 38:23  
five 45:21  
management 44:1  
46:15 47:11 48:15 manager 34:11  
group 40:10  
36:14,18  
K
guidance 45:23  
guru 49:9,17  
guys 45:20  
Marcy 34:18 36:24  
38:3 45:25 46:19  
47:2,17 50:18,24  
51:6  
Mark 35:4 42:11,15  
42:16,17 45:18  
marvelous 36:24  
Mary 34:11 36:4  
42:17 46:11 47:7  
50:15,17  
matter 36:11 46:13  
47:9 48:13  
McWilliams 35:4  
42:15,16,17  
MDHHS 40:14,21  
40:23 41:2,19,23  
mean 49:11  
Kalamazoo 38:20  
keep 37:5  
Kelly 34:16 36:12  
36:13,16 46:14  
47:10 48:13 51:13  
Klingshirn 34:18  
know 47:23 48:18  
49:8,10,11,13,24  
49:25 50:2,14  
Koerber 35:4 38:9,9  
38:12,13,17 42:5  
42:8  
H
half 46:25  
hand 36:25 37:22  
37:25 42:11 46:17  
47:14 51:4  
happen 49:7  
individuals 39:16  
39:20  
happening 40:8  
happy 41:15 49:21  
50:10  
harm 39:17 44:20  
health 34:2,12 36:6  
39:10 40:12,13,14  
40:20,24 41:3,19  
41:23 46:12 47:8  
hearing 34:4 36:21  
36:22 37:5,6,16  
focus 39:1,4  
follow 40:13,16  
follow-up 44:13  
following 40:23  
forget 49:2  
forgot 51:15  
forms 39:21 43:4  
forth 40:14  
ineffective 44:14  
information 41:14  
41:17,21 45:16  
injuries 44:17  
input 41:16  
insight 41:15  
inspection 50:7  
institution 39:7  
40:12,25 46:10  
L
lack 45:1 49:16  
lacked 44:14  
Lakes 38:18 39:19  
Lansing 34:14  
45:16  
media 42:19  
meeting 50:23  
Megan 37:20  
forward 42:3 45:18  
47:15 50:2  
Page 2  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
mental 39:10 40:12  
40:13  
Michigan 34:1,12  
34:14 38:20,25  
39:13 40:3,13  
42:19,22  
minute 47:17 51:6  
minutes 46:5  
mission 42:22  
monitor 43:25 44:7  
monitoring 42:23  
44:10,12  
morning 36:3,17  
37:23 38:10 46:9  
46:13  
46:12 47:8  
Okay 37:20 38:1,7  
45:25 46:18,24  
48:17 50:21 51:10 plentiful 39:13  
opportunity 37:7  
42:6 45:15  
option 48:7  
order 45:6  
organization 37:9  
45:20  
Organizations  
40:17  
outcome-based  
43:17  
45:15 46:5 47:2  
48:21 50:13 51:4  
51:15  
put 48:4 49:4  
36:5 46:12 47:8  
relate 44:5  
Q
question 48:20,25  
49:15  
questions 48:16  
50:13 51:14  
quite 41:6  
relations 42:19  
remediate 44:15  
repeat 44:3,24  
repeated 44:15  
report 43:24 44:6  
44:11 45:5  
REPORTER 38:4  
46:3,6,21 47:3,24  
50:17,19,25 51:8  
reporting 34:19  
43:16  
represent 39:13  
request 37:17 46:1  
requesting 37:18  
require 40:7  
required 40:13,16  
requirement 43:17  
requirements 43:18  
50:7  
rescinded 50:6  
Research 38:19  
39:19  
reside 39:4,7  
residing 39:24  
respect 37:5  
respectful 37:6  
response 44:24  
49:18,19,22  
restraint 39:2 43:2  
43:4,5,6,21  
restraints 44:17  
rests 43:22  
result 39:5  
plus 39:1  
policy 42:18  
population 39:14  
40:3,4  
pose 41:25  
quote 44:10  
posed 44:20  
R
positive 41:6 45:12  
potential 41:7 42:1  
potentially 40:1  
pre-approve 43:25  
Present 34:16  
prevalent 44:19  
prevent 45:6  
prevented 45:4  
previous 49:6  
Previously 49:1  
private 42:20  
probably 49:6  
procedure 47:21  
procedures 45:1  
proceed 42:12,13  
Proceedings 51:20  
process 37:5,6 41:10  
43:7 45:9  
radar 49:25  
raise 36:25 37:22,25  
42:10 46:17 47:14  
51:4  
rate 40:9  
re-open 49:12  
read 38:14  
ready 48:1,3,4  
51:13  
really 45:22  
outsourcing 44:1  
overdue 43:10  
oversee 43:25  
oversight 44:2,9  
45:3  
mute 36:22 46:17  
47:24  
N
name 36:4 37:8,9  
38:16 42:13,17  
46:11 47:7  
narrowed 43:6  
nature 44:16  
need 44:23 45:22  
needed 49:12  
Needman 49:8  
needs 42:23  
network 34:19  
41:13  
new 49:4  
newer 50:6  
non-compliance  
44:25  
non-fire 48:18  
nonemergency 43:5  
nonpartisan 42:20  
nonprofit 42:20  
noon 37:12  
notably 39:1,14  
noted 41:5,7  
noticed 47:20  
noxious 43:4  
Number 34:19  
P
reasons 50:1  
recognize 39:12,18  
recognizing 44:23  
recommendation  
49:9  
recommendations  
43:11,13,14 50:2  
recommends 43:23  
reconvene 46:5  
50:23  
record 36:7 38:2,3,6  
42:13 46:1,8,10  
46:19,23 47:2,4,6  
47:16,18,19 48:21  
50:17,20,24 51:1  
51:2,7,9  
recorded 34:18  
36:23  
Recorder 34:18  
recurred 44:18  
reduce 43:1  
reference 43:12  
44:4  
references 41:19  
regard 44:3 47:6  
48:21 50:9  
p.m 51:11,17,20  
PAGE 35:2  
particular 50:9  
particularly 43:3  
44:3  
passed 50:2  
Patty 49:7  
people 42:21 48:5  
performance 43:24  
43:25  
period 39:24 49:3  
person 37:3  
Ph.D 35:4 38:12  
Philson 35:5 47:25  
48:9,17,24,25  
49:23 50:11,15  
phone 37:2,4  
phones 36:22  
phonetic 49:8  
physical 44:16  
place 48:21 49:20  
placed 39:9 40:11  
40:22 49:10  
placement 39:5  
40:12  
placements 40:6  
places 42:24  
plan 44:13  
Planning 43:1  
plans 44:18  
program 36:18  
39:18  
programs 45:10  
pronouncing 38:8  
proposed 39:1,6,25  
41:10 42:25 43:1  
44:25 45:9  
protection 42:21  
provide 37:7 40:2  
40:10 41:15 43:8  
46:1 49:21  
provided 41:17,20  
46:20  
provider 41:13  
providers 40:1,2,22  
41:6  
providers' 40:9  
provides 49:18  
psychiatric 40:6  
public 34:4 36:7  
37:5,13 38:2  
42:18 47:1,21  
48:6 49:19 50:23  
51:18  
resulting 39:8  
resume 46:25  
return 50:22  
review 49:19  
rewrite 50:5  
right 42:5,16 45:21  
48:1,9 50:11,15  
Rights 42:19  
risk 40:25 44:15,20  
role 36:12  
O
roles 44:5  
rooms 40:5  
o'clock 46:3,24  
50:21  
observers 48:6  
offenders 44:3  
office 36:15,18,19  
45:16  
regarding 51:18  
Registration 34:19  
regulation 45:8  
regulations 43:1,12  
43:19  
rule 37:14 41:1 49:9  
rulemaking 45:14  
rules 34:5 36:8,21  
38:24 39:1,6,25  
40:14,18 41:1,5,7  
41:10,12,22 44:3  
please 37:5,17,24  
38:11 42:10,11  
officer 34:12 36:5  
regulatory 34:12  
purposes 36:23  
Page 3  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
44:4,25 45:9,11  
46:11 47:7 48:18  
48:20 49:8 50:5,8 specialized 44:2  
50:10 51:3,16  
ruling 49:6  
running 36:21  
rush 51:11  
speak 37:3  
speaking 37:10  
46:7,21,22 47:2,3  
50:11,18,19,23,25  
51:8,12,13,17,19  
Thanks 50:15,16  
think 37:2 43:10  
third 49:12  
thorough 42:3  
Thursday 34:7 36:2  
36:4  
time 36:10 37:3,20  
38:2,2 39:24 41:9  
42:10 45:25 47:16  
49:3 51:7  
41:13  
15 46:4  
15-minute 37:11  
15-minutes 50:22  
159(1) 43:3  
159(10) 43:6  
159(2) 43:4  
159(3) 43:4  
160 43:7  
162 43:8  
1973 40:16  
1st 43:5,7  
W
wait 37:17  
specific 49:1  
specificity 44:14  
spell 37:8  
sprinkled 49:5,14  
staff 43:16  
standards 40:15,24  
41:3,20,24 43:24  
45:1  
want 36:12,25 46:19  
50:12 51:12,12  
way 48:4  
we'll 38:14 41:18  
43:9 50:23 51:6  
we're 37:2 38:1  
41:15 46:9,25  
51:2  
S
safety 44:21,25  
48:18,18,19,23  
49:8,17  
screen 38:20  
seclusion 39:2 43:2  
43:8,21  
start 36:12  
state 34:1,11 38:25  
39:13 40:7 43:22  
2
We've 41:5  
weeks 37:17  
Welfare 36:14 46:15 2:15 50:23  
2:00 37:11 50:21  
times 44:19  
43:23 44:5,7 45:2 today 36:24  
second 36:7  
section 41:8 43:2,4,5  
43:7,8  
see 37:1,21 47:2  
seeing 42:3  
send 49:16 51:15  
sent 40:6  
47:10 48:14  
wish 37:8 48:5  
work 45:21  
worked 45:20  
working 50:5  
writing 38:14,15  
49:20  
2:45 51:10,17,20  
2020 44:23  
state's 40:5 43:20  
statement 35:3,4,4,5  
37:1,4,20,22,24  
38:11,13 42:10  
45:25 47:13,15,22 trajectory 45:7  
status 37:14  
stick 50:12  
strong 41:12  
subcommittee 49:7  
49:24,25  
subject 36:10 45:13  
46:13 47:9 48:13  
submit 38:14,15  
41:18 43:9  
success 43:20  
support 39:22 44:2  
45:22 51:17  
supports 42:25  
Sure 46:4 50:12  
system 39:6 45:8  
tomorrow 37:13  
43:9  
tragedy 45:3,7  
training 43:17  
2020-039 36:8 51:2  
2020-39 46:11 47:7  
51:18  
2021 34:7 36:2,4  
2022 43:5,7  
transcript 37:16  
transcription 36:23  
36:25  
transparency 36:23  
transparent 43:18  
45:1  
Treatment 38:18  
39:19  
two 36:7 37:11,17  
38:19 48:12  
separate 41:8  
separating 40:7  
September 44:23  
serious 44:4,16,20  
seriously 41:11  
serve 40:4 45:6  
served 49:7,24  
serves 39:11  
service 39:14  
services 34:2,3,12  
34:13 36:6,19  
38:18,21 40:2  
46:13,16 47:9,12  
48:15  
serving 42:21  
set 40:14  
settlement 44:6  
severe 39:21  
sharing 47:21  
short 45:11  
written 41:5 42:3  
43:9 45:19 48:7  
24 49:11  
3
X
30-minute 37:12  
333 34:13  
335-0745 34:14  
36 35:3 49:11  
38 35:4  
Y
yada 50:1,1  
years 45:21  
youth 39:2,4,7,9,11  
39:14,22 40:3,5,6  
40:11 42:24 43:15 40,- 49:13  
4
U
underlying 44:19  
Unfortunately 39:3  
43:12  
uniquely 39:20  
unit 49:2  
unmute 37:4 47:14  
51:4  
updated 50:8  
45:6  
40,000 49:6  
42 35:4  
48 35:5  
Z
T
Zoom 34:6 36:1  
48909 34:14  
TABLE 35:1  
tackle 51:14  
take 37:22 38:3,3  
46:17,19,25 50:22 use 43:2 49:4  
taken 37:25 41:11  
team 44:2,10,12  
tell 50:4  
testify 47:18  
testimony 37:7,23  
37:25 38:3 42:4  
42:13 45:19 46:2  
46:20 47:17 48:8  
0
5
50,000 49:14  
517 34:14  
0-0-0- 51:22  
1
6
V
1-800-632-2720  
34:20  
10 34:7 36:2  
10:00 37:11 46:3  
10:21 46:5  
10th 36:4  
116 40:16,23 41:2  
41:19,23  
shout 42:11  
6924 34:18  
vacant 49:2  
variety 50:1  
versa 41:1  
significant 45:11  
similar 39:23  
situation 40:23  
size 45:9  
Soleil 34:16 36:16  
36:18,20 46:15  
7
vice 41:1  
8
Video 34:6 36:1  
violating 40:25  
violations 44:4,16  
44:25  
VOL 34:4  
vulnerable 40:3  
8151 34:19  
47:11 48:14 51:13 thank 36:16,20 38:4  
9
9:00 34:7  
9:05 36:2,4  
11th 37:14  
12:00 37:12 46:24  
12:30 47:1,5  
solutions 42:1  
sorry 42:12 47:25  
South 34:13  
38:5,16 42:2,5,7  
42:14,16 45:15,17  
45:18,19,21 46:6  
Page 4  
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES CHILDREN'S SERVICES AGENCY, PUBLIC HEARING II  
June 10, 2021  
9:11 38:1  
Page 5  
;