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STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS  
BUREAU OF PROFESSIONAL LICENSING  
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PUBLIC HEARING  
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MONDAY, MAY 17, 2021  
AT ABOUT 9:00 A.M.  
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- - -  
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VIA ZOOM TELECONFERENCE  
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RE: Cosmetology - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-50 LR)  
Pharmacy - Animal Euthanasia and Sedation Rules  
(MOAHR #2019-86-LR)  
Podiatric Medicine and Surgery - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-24 LR)  
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HEARING FACILITATOR:  
DENA MARKS  
Bureau of Professional Licensing  
611 W. Ottawa Street  
Lansing, Michigan 48909  
20 ALSO PRESENT: Kerry Ryan Przybylo  
Kimberly Catlin  
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Andria Ditschman  
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23 REPORTED BY: Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315  
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I N D E X  
2 Opening Statement - Dena Marks  
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4 COMMENTS:  
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Katherine Pavlik - Cosmetology  
Chakakhan Hill - Cosmetology  
Cathy Anderson - Pharmacy  
Shirene Cece-Clements - Pharmacy  
Derek Dalling - Podiatric Medicine  
Stacey Hettiger - Podiatric Medicine  
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12 Closing Statement - Dena Marks  
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Lansing, Michigan  
Monday, May 17, 2021  
At 9:00 a.m.  
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(Public hearing commenced pursuant to due notice.)  
MS. MARKS: Good morning. My name is  
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Dena Marks, and I'm an analyst for the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing in the Department of Licensing and  
Regulatory Affairs. I will be conducting the hearing  
today.  
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This is a public hearing on the proposed  
administrative rules entitled "Cosmetology - General  
Rules", "Pharmacy - Animal Euthanasia and Sedation  
Rules", and "Podiatric Medicine and Surgery - General  
Rules". We are conducting the hearing as required by the  
Administrative Procedures Act to allow the public to  
comment on the proposed changes to these rule sets. As  
with all other public hearings on draft rule sets, the  
only items discussed during this hearing will be the  
proposed changes to the rule sets. The hearing will not  
be covering any questions or discussions on any other  
issues.  
We are calling this hearing to order at  
9:00 a.m. on May the 17th, 2021, via Zoom to comply with  
measures designed to help prevent the spread of  
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Coronavirus 2019, known as COVID-19, and the City of  
Lansing Resolution #2021-081. The notice of public  
hearing was published in three newspapers of general  
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circulation, the Flint Journal, the Grand Rapids Press,  
and the Mining Journal on May the 4th, 2021, as well as  
the Michigan Register, Issue #8-2021, published on  
May the 15th of 2021.  
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All comments should relate directly to  
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the proposed rules. If you have questions about the  
rules, you may place your comments on the record and the  
Department will review and consider them. If you have  
suggested changes to the proposed rules, please include  
the specific reasons why the changes would be in the  
public interest.  
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We will take comments in the following  
manner:  
• For those of you using the Video Conference  
Portion (not calling on a telephone) please use  
the "Raise Your Hand" function in Zoom. I will  
call on individuals to speak and they will be  
unmuted at that time.  
• For participants that are available only by  
telephone, we will ask if you wish to make a  
comment after the video participants have  
finished.  
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• If you have a comment but do not wish to speak,  
please note that the Department will also accept  
written statements e-mailed or postmarked to the  
BPL-BoardSupport@Michigan.gov until 5:00 p.m.  
today.  
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If you have previously submitted comments  
in writing to the Bureau, it is not necessary for you to  
repeat your comments on the record today. Comments made  
in writing will be reviewed and considered by the  
Department in the same manner as comments made during  
this public hearing.  
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Those making comments during this hearing  
should clearly and slowly say and spell your name and  
advise if you are speaking on behalf of an organization.  
We will limit comments to three minutes per person.  
Please remember that only one person should speak at a  
time.  
The Department staff from the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing includes me, Kimberly Catlin,  
Andria Ditschman, and Kerry Przybylo.  
Is there anyone who wishes to make  
comments on the Cosmetology - General Rules? Again, if  
you are using your video, please use the "Raise Your  
Hand" function and we will call on you.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Okay. I think --  
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MS. MARKS: Kathy Pavlik, can you unmute  
yourself, and then you may speak, please.  
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KATHERINE PAVLIK: Yes. I have quite a  
few things I want to speak on as far as the Cosmetology  
Rules are concerned.  
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COURT REPORTER: Can we have your  
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spelling of your name, please?  
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KATHERINE PAVLIK: Katherine,  
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K-a-t-h-e-r-i-n-e, last name Pavlik, P-a-v-l-i-k.  
MS. MARKS: And are you representing an  
organization, Kathy?  
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KATHERINE PAVLIK: I work for Michigan  
College of Beauty in Troy, Michigan.  
MS. MARKS: Thank you. Go ahead with  
your comments.  
KATHERINE PAVLIK: Okay. Let me get them  
ready, I didn't think we were going to do them this  
quick.  
So my first -- some of mine are  
clarifications and them some of them are comments or  
concerns on the actual rule. So my first one is on page  
2, Rule No. 338.2171a. It states that we have to -- let  
me see, read it here exactly. It says, it talks about  
the grade level, but it doesn't state what grade level,  
the requirement, where before we used to have a ninth  
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grade education grade level, this doesn't specify. So  
I'm just clarifying, is that still the case?  
MS. MARKS: We'll take a look at that,  
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Kathy. Thank you for your comment. You can go ahead.  
KATHERINE PAVLIK: Okay. The second one  
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is also on page 2, it's Rule 338.2171a, minimum practical  
applications has been removed as a definition. And I do  
agree with the practical hours needing to be in there as  
a definition, however, we still have to have minimum  
practical applications in the curriculum grid, so  
therefore I think we still need to have a definition of  
what minimum practical applications are. I know that  
they tried to take them out because they tried to remove  
minimum practical applications from the grid, but it  
stayed, so I think the definition needs to stay.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: This is Kerry Przybylo  
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speaking. Kathy, did you have any further comments?  
KATHERINE PAVLIK: Yes. I was waiting  
for a response that you guys were comfortable with --  
MS. PRZYBYLO: We don't respond. This is  
just our time to --  
(Multiple speakers.)  
KATHERINE PAVLIK: Okay. So I'll just  
keep rolling then. Okay. I'm sorry. I misunderstood.  
So I have a lot.  
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On page 3, Rule No. R 338.2121a, just  
again for clarification purposes, I know that we're going  
with the new NBCP examination, I was just wondering if we  
could get clarification as to when bulletins and  
information would be available for schools to get the  
students prepared, and if there would be a meeting or a  
training on that for the schools.  
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And then on page 7, Rule 338.2180(10)(b),  
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again on page 7, I had a question or for some  
clarification. It talks about the, not having branch  
facilities anymore but each school having its own  
individual license and that each instructor working for  
the school has to have their license hung in the separate  
premise location. Would the e-mailed copy that we  
receive when we get our license, would that be accepted,  
or would we have to have an actual -- purchase a new  
license for each building? So again, clarification on  
that.  
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I did have page 9, but page 9 again is  
just the removal of the minimum practical applications.  
And so on Rule 338.2136(2)(b), I think that we need to  
put the minimum practical applications in there as well  
when we're transferring students' training hours and  
practical hours, that we should be transferring their  
applications as well since they are part of the  
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curriculum still.  
Now on page 10, Rule 338.2139, Rule  
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39(1), there's no longer a passing score requirement like  
specified, before it used to be a student had to pass  
with a 75 percent or above, it just states that we have  
to pass with a passing score. So is it up to the school  
to determine the passing score? Are we going to follow  
the passing score of the NBCP examination when we get  
that? So again, more clarification, it's not very clear  
as to what the new passing score should be.  
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And then page 24 through 26 is where we  
have the biggest concern, and it's the cosmetology table  
for the curriculum, and I can e-mail you a copy of what I  
typed out as well because it might be a little bit more  
helpful. But the concern is -- there's a lot of concerns  
with the curriculum. So first and foremost, the theory  
hours, the way it's broken down now, the students in  
section (a), the health and safety related to skin care  
and then it goes into anatomy, chemistry, diseases,  
disorders, laws and rules, occupational safety,  
professional hygiene, sanitation equipment, all of that  
is now only 75 hours, whereas before it was 155. And so  
for that much sanitation and infection control and  
diseases and disorders, I don't think that that's  
sufficient theory hours, especially when we're also  
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having to train in, more in depth in manicuring and  
aesthetics in those categories as well. But more  
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concerning is when we take a look at part (b), (c), and  
(d) with the theory and practical hours, so when we break  
it down -- let me take a look at my math here. When we  
break it down, the cosmetology students' practical  
hours -- oh, and I do believe that the 125 is too much in  
the sanitation.  
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But moving on, if we look into the hair  
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services, they receive 600 hours in practical hours and  
425 minimum practical applications to be completed within  
that 600 hours; so if we were to do the math on that, we  
are giving the student an hour, 1 hour .41, so not quite  
an hour and a half to perform. If we look at the  
categories, they have 15 topics, so if we were just to  
take those 15 topics, we are giving them about just less  
than an hour and a half to perform one of those, and as a  
cosmetologist, a hair color service alone could take  
upwards to 2, 3, 6 hours; whereas if we looked at the  
aesthetics or the manicuring services, they have 150  
practical hours to perform 25 services, that's giving  
them approximately 6 hours per task to do, and we're only  
looking at 4 tasks in aesthetics and 3 tasks in  
manicuring. So I really think that the table is  
overweighted in practical and theory for aesthetics and  
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skin care -- I'm sorry -- skin care services and  
manicuring services and not heavily weighted enough in  
hair services. Does that make sense, what I'm trying  
explain?  
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And it also falls true when we're looking  
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at the theory portion of it. So if we were to look at  
the theory portion of it, in hair -- in nail services  
anesthetic services, the theory portion, we're giving  
them 20 hours per topic in manicuring services of theory  
and we're giving them 16.66 hours per topic in theory and  
aesthetics, but they're only receiving 8 hours per topic  
in theory -- I'm sorry, not 8 -- 15 hours in theory. Let  
me double check my note here, I'm making an error, I know  
I am. Yes, 15 hours in cosmetology services. So again,  
it's just, I think that what we were trying to do was get  
them more training in skin and nails, which I agree with,  
however, now we've tipped the scale so much into nails  
and manicuring and not enough into cosmetology services.  
And also, when we look at the textbook  
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support that's offered, we have Pivot Point or Milady as  
our training books that are accepted by the State. If  
you were to look at those, they're only giving us like 37  
hours in skin and 34-35 hours in nails. Unfortunately,  
what is the school to do? They're going to have to  
purchase a cosmetology, a manicuring, and an aesthetics  
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book and pass that cost down to the students, which a  
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majority of the students in the cosmetology program don't  
have that much desire in skin and nails, they'd rather  
learn more about the trendy hair services, the cutting  
and the colors and things of that nature. So I just  
think that we need to take a more thorough look at those  
grids and those curriculums because it's too heavily  
weighted in the nails and in the manicuring and not  
enough in the hair services. So I think that's pretty  
much it on the grid.  
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And then moving on from the curriculum,  
on page 71 -- I'm sorry -- 33, it's Rule 71(e) on page  
33. There's a new statement here that states, and I'm  
not really clear on it, "The manufacturer-labeled  
container of each disinfectant and sterilant that is  
used." I'm not really sure what that means. Are they  
requiring that we use the disinfectant in the  
manufacturer-labeled bottle? I'm not really sure what  
you're asking for. And if that's the case, what is  
schools and salons supposed to do that purchase it in  
gallons and then dilute it down and put it into a  
separate disinfecting bottle? So I just, again, more  
clarification there because that's kind of confusing.  
And then on page 34, again, Rule No.  
71(1)(b)(i), it states manicuring -- so it talks about  
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having to disinfect tools in a covered container that's  
fully submerged. Does that now change the requirement  
for manicuring tools? So prior to this rule, in most  
states and most salons and schools used a jar where the  
working surface of the tool is submerged into the  
disinfectant and a good part of the handle is out of the  
jar; so would those no longer be allowed, or would we  
have to switch our disinfection container? What is the  
detailed specific protocol for disinfecting manicuring  
schools?  
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And then I just have two more. Page 34  
still, Rule 71a(4), it states that we have to now launder  
towels, neck strips, and capes in a detergent with hot  
water up to 160 degrees Fahrenheit for not less than  
24 -- 25 minutes in a wash and rinse cycle. I mean I'm  
not that young, my washing machine at home and my washing  
machine at work doesn't state in temperature 160 degrees,  
so I just want clarification as to how do we determine  
that we're using that water temperature if the state  
board inspector was to come in, what are they going to do  
to check this, what do we need to do on our end to make  
sure that we're not in default or problem with that?  
And then my last one is on page 35,  
71b(b), and it talks about sanitizing hands. I think  
that the cosmetology or hair services should be included  
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in that statement. I agree that we should sanitize our  
hands with electrology, manicuring, and skin care, but  
why not cosmetology hair services; especially in the day  
of COVID right now, I definitely think we need to add  
hair services to that as well. And that's all my  
concerns.  
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MS. MARKS: Thank you, Kathy.  
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KATHERINE PAVLIK: Thank you.  
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MS. MARKS: Are there any other comments  
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from those attending by video? Again, please use the  
"Raise Your Hand" function. Comments about the  
Cosmetology Rules? I'm not seeing any others.  
Let's move on to those attending by  
phone. If there's anyone attending by phone who would  
like to make a comment about the Cosmetology Rules, hit  
*6, it will unmute your phone, and you may add your  
comment to the record.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: I don't see comments,  
Dena. Oh, there's -- hold on one second. The person  
whose number ends in 8230, did you have a comment?  
CHAKAKHAN HILL: Actually, I just wanted  
to confirm that I accepted the invitation to attend.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Okay. Hold on one second,  
please. Could you please first identify yourself for our  
court reporter.  
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CHAKAKHAN HILL: Yes. Chakakhan Hill,  
first name spelled C-h-a-k-a-k-h-a-n, last name Hill,  
H-i-l-l.  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: And what was your comment,  
Ms. Hill?  
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CHAKAKHAN HILL: I confirm accepting  
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invitation to attend this General Rules - Cosmetology  
hearing because I am a licensed cosmetologist, and that's  
all.  
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MS. PRZYBYLO: All right. Thank you.  
MS. MARKS: Okay. If there are no other  
comments on the Cosmetology - General Rules. Is there  
anyone here who wishes to make comments on the Pharmacy -  
Animal Euthanasia and Sedation Rules? If so and you're  
attending by video, please use the "Raise Your Hand"  
function and we will call on you to make those comments  
now. I'm not seeing any, are you, Kerry?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: No.  
MS. MARKS: If you are phoning in and  
would like to make a comment on the Pharmacy - Animal  
Euthanasia and Sedation Rules, please hit *6, and you may  
add your comment to the record at this time.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Cathy Anderson has a  
comment.  
MS. MARKS: Thank you. Go ahead, Cathy.  
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Can you unmute yourself, Cathy?  
CATHY ANDERSON: Sorry about that. Hi.  
MS. MARKS: That's okay. First and last  
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name with spelling, and identify any organization you're  
representing, please.  
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KATHERINE PAVLIK: Absolutely. I am  
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Dr. Cathy Anderson, C-a-t-h-y, Anderson, A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n,  
and I am speaking on behalf of the MVMA, Michigan  
Veterinary Medical Association. Thank you.  
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I wanted to briefly introduce myself and  
tell you why I'm on this call. I am a shelter  
veterinarian, you probably hear my patients in the  
background; I am also an instructor for shelter personnel  
in the state-required euthanasia by injection course, as  
well as the chemical immobilization course, so I do offer  
instruction in both of those courses that are impacted by  
this proposed rule change. And as I've said, I'm also  
the, a member of the Michigan Veterinary Medical  
Association, and am indeed the chairperson of the  
legislative advisory committee for that group.  
We were one of the stakeholders involved  
in the drafting of the original House Bill that went  
through and subsequently became part of the Public Health  
Code, and it was our group, which included Michigan  
Department of Ag, Michigan Humane, Michigan Association  
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of Animal Control Officers, that brought forth that law  
change.  
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I am representing the MVMA and would like  
to say thank you so much for all the work you've done on  
drafting the rules surrounding this amendment, but I do  
want to ask that, respectfully, that you all review a  
letter that we have already sent in with some proposed  
changes to the language that, with the current draft that  
you have put forward. We are hoping that you will  
consider the edits we have suggested prior to formally  
submitting the draft of these rules. And that's all I  
have to say. Thank you.  
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MS. MARKS: Thank you.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Thank you, Dr. Anderson.  
MS. MARKS: Are there any other comments  
concerning the Pharmacy - Animal Euthanasia and Sedation  
Rules?  
MS. PRZYBYLO: Shirene Cece, is her hand  
raised?  
SHIRENE CECE-CLEMENTS: Yes. I am  
Shirene Cece-Clements, so S-h-i-r-e-n-e C-e-c-e hyphen  
C-l-e-m-e-n-t-s. I am a veterinarian with Michigan  
Human, I'm also a member of the MVMA.  
And so I would just like to -- I'm also  
an instructor for the euthanasia training in the State of  
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Michigan, and I would just like to put my support behind  
what Cathy -- Dr. Anderson has already said, and hopeful  
that you will look at our changes and hope that you will  
address those and see that they're making improvements.  
So that's all I need to say. Thank you very much for  
your time.  
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MS. MARKS: Thank you. Are there any  
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other attending by video who would like to make comments  
concerning the Pharmacy - Animal Euthanasia and Sedation  
Rules? Not seeing any.  
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Again, if you are attending by phone and  
would like to make comments about those Rules, hit *6,  
and that will unmute your phone and you may speak at this  
time.  
MS. PRZYBYLO: I think we can move on,  
Dena.  
MS. MARKS: All right. If there are no  
further comments on that rule set --  
SHIRENE CECE-CLEMENTS: Well, that wasn't  
as painful as I thought. Never been to one of these  
before, so.  
MS. MARKS: Is there anyone who would  
like to make comments on the Podiatric Medicine and  
Surgery - General Rules? If you are attending by video,  
please use the "Raise Your Hand" function. I see two  
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people. Derek Dalling, would you like to make comments  
at this time?  
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DEREK DALLING: Yes, thank you. Good  
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morning.  
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MS. MARKS: Good morning.  
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DEREK DALLING: Derek Dalling, D-e-r-e-k,  
last name D-a-l-l-i-n-g. Just want to quickly -- oh, on  
behalf of the Michigan Podiatric Medical Association, by  
the way.  
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Wanted to just thank the Department staff  
for work on these rules, we greatly appreciate all of  
you, especially amending the rules that were some recent  
changes. Those most recent changes will help podiatric  
residents from around the country be able to come to our  
state, practice legally. In light of some changes from  
the COVID pandemic, one of their exams was not allowed,  
and these rule changes will allow them to practice here  
without any interference. So we greatly appreciate that  
rule change and greatly appreciate all the Department  
staff's help for making those changes for us. Thank you.  
MS. MARKS: Thank you for your comments.  
Stacey Hettiger.  
STACEY HETTIGER: Good morning. Thank  
you so much for the opportunity to speak. My name is  
Stacey Hettiger, I'm the senior director of Medical and  
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Regulatory Policy at the Michigan State Medical Society.  
First name is spelled S-t-a-c-e-y, last name is  
H-e-t-t-i-g-e-r.  
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And I just wanted to bring to your  
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attention and request an amendment to the Podiatry Rules.  
As Derek Dalling mentioned, there was a situation as a  
result of the pandemic where the National Board of  
Podiatric Medical Examiners voted not to do the component  
of the Part 2 examination, and because of that decision,  
there really is no opportunity for those residents to  
take the exam, and so no opportunity to have a passing  
score to provide to LARA. So we are asking that the  
rules be amended, specifically Rule 104, subsections (2)  
and (3), to provide a waiver for the class of 2021, as  
well as any potential future classes where the exam might  
not be provided. We have also submitted those comments  
in writing with more detail. So thank you so much, and  
have a nice day.  
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MS. MARKS: Thank you. Are there any  
other participants attending by video who would like to  
make comments about the Podiatric Medicine Rules? I'm  
not seeing any others.  
Again, if you are attending by phone and  
would like to make comments about that rule set, please  
hit *6, and you may add your comments at this time.  
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If there are no other persons who wish to  
speak at this time, we are going to take a ten-minute  
break to allow anyone else who would like to join and  
make comments about any of those three rule sets today to  
do so at that time. So we are on recess for ten minutes.  
Thank you.  
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(At 9:29 a.m., there was a ten-minute recess.)  
MS. MARKS: We will go back on the  
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record. Are there any other comments about any of the  
three rule sets? Again, if you're attending by video,  
please use the "Raise Your Hand" function; if you are  
attending by phone, please hit *6 to unmute yourself to  
speak.  
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If there are no further comments at this  
time, I hereby declare the hearing closed. The record  
will remain open until today at 5:00 p.m. for any other  
comments you may wish to share about the proposed rules.  
Thank you for attending today's hearing.  
(At 9:40 a.m., the public hearing concluded.)  
- - -  
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C E R T I F I C A T E  
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I, Lori Anne Penn, do hereby certify that I  
reported in stenotype via Zoom Teleconference the  
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proceedings had in the within-entitled matter, that being  
Cosmetology - General Rules (MOAHR #2020-50 LR), Pharmacy  
- Animal Euthanasia and Sedation Rules (MOAHR #2019-86  
LR), and Podiatric Medicine and Surgery - General Rules  
(MOAHR #2020-24 LR), Dena Marks, hearing facilitator for  
the Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs,  
Bureau of Professional Licensing, Lansing, Michigan, on  
Monday, May 17, 2021; and do further certify that the  
foregoing transcript, consisting of 22, is a true and  
correct transcript of my stenotype notes.  
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Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315  
Penn Reporting, LLC  
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May 18, 2021  
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;