FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION

ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

March 24, 2021

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FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

March 24, 2021

STATE OF MICHIGAN

LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS - BUREAU OF FIRE SERVICES

FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION

ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

Bureau of Fire Services

Via Zoom Video Conference

Wednesday, March 24, 2021, 11:00 a.m.

Members Present: Ann Searles, Bureau of Fire Services Deputy

Director

Andrea Keown, Bureau of Fire Services

Kevin Schlmeyer, Michigan Fire Marshall

Robert Stokes, Regional Coordinator FFTD

Dan Hammerberg, Regional Coordinator FFTD

Also Present:

Hollie Metts, Assistant to the Michigan Fire

Marshall

RECORDED BY - Anna Burns, CER 9214

Certified Electronic Recorder

Network Reporting Corporation

Firm Registration Number 8151

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FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

March 24, 2021

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

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Call to Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

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Regular Public Meeting. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

Kyle Svoboda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

Chris Mantels. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9

Shaun Abbey. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12

Mark Fankhauser. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13

Michael McLeieer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14

Mark Docherty. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16

Jack, Johnson, Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

Richard Clark. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

Robert Cairnduff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

Alex Koshorek. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19

Justin Fox . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20

Bryce Tracy. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20

Adam Carroll . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21

Matthew Sahr . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24

Christopher Dean . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25

Jesse Marcotte . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26

Nicholas Vaught. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29

Kevin Edmond . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29

Eric Thomas. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30

Steve Heim . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31

Chris Krotche. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33

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Mark Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34

Jim Daveluy. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36

Shawn Allen. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37

Kevin Retzloff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37

Mike Vogt. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37

Liam Karroll . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38

John Polzin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41

Chris Lince. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41

Doug Bourgeois . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41

Rob Scott. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42

Andy Steeby. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43

Sean Canto . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 44

Joe Grutza . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46

Charles Pichan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46

Mike Harper. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46

Roger Bebeau . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47

Nicolas Gettel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48

Josh Gray. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48

Chris Coughlin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49

Christopher Love . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51

Anthony Watts. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51

Steve Mojzuk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

Jeff Friedenstab . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

Jamal Mickles. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

Jeffrey Forbes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53

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Robert Massey. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54

Timothy Seal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54

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Robert Smith . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56

Brian Rayle. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57

James Edwards. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57

Stacy Taylor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57

Donald Bigger. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 58

Adjourn/Adjournment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60

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EXHIBIT INDEX

PAGE

Exhibit 1 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60

(Notice of Public Hearing)

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Via Zoom Video Conference

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Wednesday, March 24, 2021 - 11:00 a.m.

MS. SEARLES: Good morning. My name is Ann

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Searles, and I am the Deputy Director for the Bureau of Fire

Services in the Department of Licensing and Regulatory

Affairs. I will be conducting the hearing today. This is a

public hearing on the proposed administrative rules

entitled, "Fire Fighters Training Council General Rules."

We are conducting the hearing as required by the

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administrative procedures Act to allow the public to comment

on the proposed changes to this rule set.

As with all other public hearings on draft rule

sets, the only items discussed during this hearing will be

the proposed changes to the rule set. This hearing will not

be covering any questions or discussions on any other

issues. We are calling this hearing to order at 11:00 a.m.

on March 24th, 2021 via Zoom to comply with the statutory

requirement. The Notice of Public Hearing was published in

three newspapers of general circulation; The Grand Rapids

Press, The Oakland Press, The Mining Journal, all on March

1st, 2021, as well as with the Michigan Register, Issue

3-2021, published on March 1st, 2021.

All comments should relate directly to the

proposed rules. We will take comments in the following

manner: For those wishing -- or using the video conference

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portion, please use the "Raise your hand" feature in Zoom.

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Let me share my screen to show you how to do that. Can

everybody see my screen?

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(Shares document via video)

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MS. SEARLES: Sorry about that. Hold on. Let me

try that again. Can everybody see my screen that shows the

participants down at the bottom? Andrea, can you see that?

MS. KEOWN: (Shaking head negatively)

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MS. SEARLES: No? Well, I guess it's not going to

show. What you will do is look down at the bottom of the

screen; it shows "participants." You will click on the

participants located in the menu bar there, and then the

option to "raise your hand" is available at the bottom of

the participant list. If you don't see this option, you

will need to expand the participants list. I will call on

individuals to speak, and they will be un-muted at that

time.

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For participants that are available only by

telephone, after the video participants have finished, we

will call off the last four digits of your phone number, and

we will ask you if you wish to make a comment. If you have

a comment but do not wish to speak, please note that the

department will also accept written statements, emailed or

postmarked, to LARA-BFS@michigan.gov until 5:00 p.m. today.

The Bureau will not accept public comments on the Rules in

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the chat function in Zoom. If you have previously submitted

comments in writing to the Bureau, it is not necessary for

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your to repeat your comments on the record today. Comments

made in writing will be received and considered by the

department in the same manner as comments made during the

public hearing. Those making comments during this hearing

should clearly -- should speak clearly and slowly, and say

and spell your name, and advise us if you are speaking on

behalf of an organization.

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Each person will have the opportunity to speak

only once, and comments will be limited to three minutes per

person. The speaker will be verbally stopped at three

minutes -- at the three-minute mark, and we will move on to

the next speaker. The department staff and the Bureau of

Fire Services includes myself and Andrea Keown. Is there

anyone who wishes to make comments on the Fire Fighters

Training Council General Rules? If so, please, on the

bottom of your screen, click on the participant list, and

select "raise your hand."

MFIS Administrator.

KYLE SVOBODA

MR. SVOBODA: Kyle Svoboda, K-y-l-e,

S-v-o-b-o-d-a, current president of the Michigan Fire

Inspector Society, and that is who I am representing today.

First of all, I wanted to say "thank you" to the committee

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members, who are sitting on the committee to review the

rules. We realize there has been quite a few hours of your

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time in meetings and away from the office to make sure that

this process is done in a fair manner, and we appreciate

that time.

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Overall, the Board sees that the rules are going

to make the Fire Service better, and throughout the process,

our representative on the e-board has done a very good job

talking about our questions and comments and concerns, and

relaying those answers back to us.

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All things considered, it does appear that there

is one major concern of talking with a few of the groups,

and realistically, the Board recognizes that we started with

dozens of issues and concerns, and we've whittled it down to

one, and we think that, you know, it should be considered a

win at the end of the day, and it shows the process works.

The one point that we were wanting to mention and maybe

bring to the attention and talk about the possible concerns

that might come about of it, is obviously the reciprocity.

That's the one major concern that we have made aware of with

other organization and other groups.

Section 29.403, number 5, what's unclear to us is

the process for obtaining the MOU, what the standard of

allowing for an MOU is, and what the extent is going to be

for allowing MOU's outside of the State of Michigan. We've

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had many conversations with our community members, as well

as other members out there at large in the Fire Service, and

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there has been lots of confusion as to what's going to be

allowed, what's not going to be allowed, and our

representative, at the end of the day, has assured us that

the intent is not to be a negative impact on our members.

And so with this in mind, all of our significant concerns

with the fire inspectors have been addressed. We do realize

it's a democratic process and votes counted, and our

executive board supports our vote on the rules from our

representatives, and we support the rules moving forward to

JCAR. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Chris Mantels.

CHRIS MANTELS

MR. MANTELS: Good morning. Chris Mantels,

C-h-r-i-s, M-a-n-t-e-l-s. I would also like to thank all of

you for the time and the opportunity to speak today. I am

the deputy chief of a combination department made up of six

career firefighters and 25 paid-on-call firefighters. I am

also a member of the Michigan Professional Fire Fighters

Union, the Michigan Fire Service Instructors Association,

the Michigan State Fireman's Association, the Michigan

Association of Fire Chiefs, and the Michigan Fire Inspector

Society.

I very much appreciate all of the time and efforts

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the Michigan Fire Fighters Training Council has spent

drafting the administrative rules. I know they have spent

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more than 150 hours throughout 40 or more meetings-at-work

sessions. In the Fire Service, we have a saying, "We don't

train until we get it right, we train until we can't get it

wrong." In my opinion, even with all the time spent by the

Council on the rules, they still have a few sections of the

draft rules wrong. We have over 30,000 firefighters in the

State of Michigan, and according to data from FEMA, 86

percent are volunteers or primarily volunteer departments.

The draft rules are going to hold 86 percent of

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firefighters to the same training requirements as the 13

percent of career firefighters in Michigan. I am very much

in support of well-trained fire fighters, whether volunteer,

paid-on-call, or career. However, we have to find the

balance of what is realistic and obtainable for our

volunteer agencies that make up 86 percent of the

firefighters in the state. Every fire department in the

United States is struggling with recruitment and retention,

and if we set the bar an unachievable height with annual

training requirements, we risk losing even more qualified

personnel.

As a senior command officer, it is my duty to make

sure my department is compliant with MIOSHA Part 74, and my

personnel are trained and retrained with the duties

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commensurate with their job. The draft rules do not need to

micromanage what MIOSHA has had in place for years. The

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current draft rules to not treat the different fire service

disciplines the same. I currently hold a Pro Board Fire

Instructor II certificate the State of Michigan will not

accept, and as I interpret the draft rules, may never accept

unless a memorandum of understanding is signed with the

parole board agencies. For many years, Michigan State

Police has taught arson school to fire investigators, and

the Michigan Fire Inspector Society has taught the NFPA

inspector program. Both programs have awarded a Pro Board

certificate that has been accepted by the Bureau of Fire

Services without a memorandum of understanding.

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Why now are we singling out once accredited

organization in Pro Board by requiring an (inaudible). The

draft rules need to remove any reference to MOU's and allow

Pro Board, IFSAC, and National Fire Academy certificates to

be accepted in their entirety for both in-state and out-of-

state candidates. I and several others spoke on this at

several of the 40 work sessions with the Training Council;

however, it appears to have fallen on deaf ears, as the

draft rules are still not right.

I would respectfully request that the current

draft rules be denied moving forward for adoption as

currently written. In my opinion, the draft administrative

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rules need to return to the Michigan Fire Fighters Training

Council for amendments to the reciprocity and training hour

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requirement sections. Thank you for your time.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Exactly.

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(Off the record interruption)

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MS. SEARLES: Shaun Abbey.

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SHAUN ABBEY

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MR. ABBEY: Good morning. Shaun Abbey, S-h-a-u-n,

A-b-b-e-y. I'm a battalion chief with the Kentwood Fire

Department and oversee our training program. I speak in

favor of moving the Act forward to the JCAR process, and

support the amendments made. I'll be very brief and just

say that all of our organizations and the whole Fire Service

has had input on what this looks like at this point, and

there is a lot of time that has been spent by a lot of

people over the course to get us to where we are.

I think it's a fair document, and it -- it's going

to move the Fire Service forward, continue to make our

communities safe, and our firefighters safe, and the

residents of Michigan safe by providing better training.

Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Mark Fankhauser. Can you un-mute,

Mark?

MR. FANKHAUSER: Can you hear me now?

MS. SEARLES: Yes.

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MARK FANKHAUSER

MR. FANKHAUSER: Sorry about that glitch. Good

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Morning, everyone. Mark Fankhauser, spelled, M-a-r-k,

F-a-n-k-h-a-u-s-e-r. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for

your time; thank you for the opportunity to address you. I

hail from Cedar Springs, Michigan; however, I am a fire

captain for the Grand Rapids Fire Department. Today, I am

speaking on my own behalf. I stand in support of Act 291.

As an engaged and active member of the Michigan Fire

Service, I (inaudible) our entire (inaudible) position is to

support this -- that all members of the Michigan Fire

Service deserves the best possible education and standards

to clearly define a process to move forward in the Michigan

Fire Service.

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It should not make a difference which municipality

you hail from. Regardless if it is completely volunteer or

career, every fire service member should be held to the same

standard that is recognizable and measurable to an

established standard. Our communities, regardless if it's

from Bruce Crossing in the UP to the City of Detroit in the

lower peninsula, those communities and those members deserve

our best, and by adopting Act 291, this is clearly a step in

the right direction. Thank you for your time. I yield back

my time.

MS. SEARLES: Michael McLeieer.

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MICHAEL MCLEIEER

MR. MCLEIEER: Okay. Thank you. Michael

McLeieer, M-i-c-h-a-e-l, last name,

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M-c, capital, L-e-i-e-e-r. I'm the immediate past president

of the Michigan State Fireman's Association and today I am

the official spokesperson for the MSFA. Michigan State

Fireman's Association represents 1,883 firefighters, company

officers, and fire chiefs across the State of Michigan. I'm

offering the following testimony to proposed Rules

2019-21 LR regarding the Fire Fighter Training requirements.

Our organization strives to ensure those on the front line

within the Fire Service are provided extensive training and

instruction so they can perform their duties that not only

protects the public, but also recognizes the dangers

inherent with the profession so they can have the tools to

protect themselves.

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Our review of the proposed rules has raised a

significant concern regarding the training requirements

proposed, and if they actually improve how we perform our

duties for our communities. Although we believe the

intentions behind the proposed rules are genuine, if

enacted, they could have a negative impact on our ability to

effectively and efficiently serve our communities, and

increases our challenges with regards to recruitment and

retention of our firefighters.

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The following outlines the concerns specific to

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the proposed rules: Reciprocity recognition for

credentialing, proposed Rule 29.404. Pro Board is the

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accrediting body for agencies that certify candidates to the

disciplines and levels identified in the National Fire

Protection Association, NFPA, professional standards.

Currently, there are over 70 agencies accredited by the Pro

Board, and those offer accredited certification to fire

service professionals across the country and around the

globe. The requirement of the Bureau of Fire Services

maintaining an MOU with multiple Pro Board approved

organizations across the country is an administrative

redundancy and does not enhance firefighter training in any

meaningful capacity. We encourage the Board to replace the

proposed administrative burdensome language with the

following that adheres to the intent of PA 291:

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"The Bureau shall recognize and offer reciprocity

to any individual holding or obtaining a certification

from a nationally recognized, accredited organization

that meets the NFPA standard at the time of issue."

In closing, ensuring that all fire service

personnel receive the necessary training to perform their

duties effectively and safely is of primary importance to

our villages, cities and townships. We need to provide our

firefighters with every opportunity to obtain nationally

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recognized certification and additional professional

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development opportunities. I hold numerous Pro Board

certifications and know firsthand the benefits of

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recognizing reciprocity. I appreciate the opportunity to

provide input on these rules and consideration of the

changes outlined above. Thank you so much for your time.

MS. SEARLES: Mark Docherty.

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MARK DOCHERTY

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MR. DOCHERTY: Good morning. Again, I would like

to also thank everybody for all their hard work. This has

been a very collaborative effort over the last few years,

many hours put involved, much input. But with a

collaborative effort, you're going to have some issues.

You're not going to always get your way. And that's the

whole point, is everybody was allowed to express their

concerns, many changes were made, and it was voted through a

democratic process to move forward.

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So -- I guess I have to state my name, too. Mark

Docherty, M-a-r-k, D-o-c-h-e-r-t-y. I am a battalion chief

with the City of Sterling Heights Fire Department. I am

also the president of the Michigan Professional Fire

Fighters Union. Continuing on, this was a democratic

process; these concerns were addressed; the reciprocity was

addressed. We don't feel the claims they make are true. So

I support, obviously, 100 percent moving this forward.

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Let's move this, due process. It was voted out by a great

majority of the Training Council to move forward based on

these concerns.

One thing I do want to address is the comments

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about training. The comments that this will somehow impact

the paid -- the on-call and volunteer. It's ridiculous.

Training directly affects the safety of firefighters. Why

do they not deserve the same level of safety as we do as

career firefighters? These aren't requirements that are too

much. Right now, currently, we don't require anything, any

training whatsoever in continuing education for training our

firefighters; nothing. They cannot train again for the rest

of their career and they would not meet -- or they meet the

guidelines. This is putting a base in there to say that you

do have to do some training. It's for their safety, and

ultimately for the safety of our residents.

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So we strongly support training. We strongly

support this baseline -- and this isn't saying this is the

minimal -- or the most they have to have; this is the

minimal. I agree 100 percent there is more training based

on your response types that you may have to get through

years, but this is a base. Please move this forward. This

has been a collaborative effort. We support it 100 percent,

and we would like to see them adopted. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Jack Johnson, Jr.

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JACK JOHNSON, JR.

MR. JOHNSON: Hi. My name is Jack Johnson, Jr.,

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spelled, J-a-c-k, J-o-h-n-s-o-n, J-r. I currently live in

Montcalm County, and I am a battalion chief with the City of

Grand Rapids Fire Department representing my own views here

today. And I will be brief, and just let you know that I

support moving this forward. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Richard Clark.

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RICHARD CLARK

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MR. CLARK: Good morning. My name is Richard

Clark, R-i-c-h-a-r-d, C-l-a-r-k. I'm a captain with the

Grand Rapids Fire Department. I live in Kent County. I

wholehordidly (phonetic) -- wholeheartedly -- excuse me

support this. Training should be -- recognized and accepted

by everybody in the Fire Service, regardless of volunteer,

paid on-call, or professional. And that's all I

wanted (inaudible). Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Bob Cairnduff.

ROBERT CAIRNDUFF

MR. CAIRNDUFF: Thank you. Robert Cairnduff, City

of Fenton Fire Department; R-o-b-e-r-t, C-a-i-r-n-d-u-f-f.

Here today -- I do disagree with some of the comments today.

I am in full support of the letter that the Michigan

Association of Fire Chiefs submitted with the points that

they established. There are differences between career,

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paid-on-call, and volunteer departments, and those concerns

are not met by the current proposal.

We are struggling as it is to get members, keep

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members. It is a national problem, and the increased

training requirements, that although were not identified

specifically, will have an impact on the smaller

departments. And that is my opinion, and I will be done

with that point. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Alex Koshorek.

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MR. KOSHOREK: Hello. Can you hear me?

MS. SEARLES: Yes.

MR. KOSHOREK: I just am here to --

MS. SEARLES: Could you state your name, please?

MR. KOSHOREK: -- in favor of --

MS. SEARLES: Could you state and spell your name,

please?

ALEX KOSHOREK

MR. KOSHOREK: I'm sorry. It's, A-l-e-x,

K-o-s-h-o-r-e- -- and I am just here to speak in favor of

the proposed changes. I feel that these changes are

necessary and overdue. I think that the committee was made

up and diverse enough that it performed its due diligence,

and -- throughout the process, and it is time that we

implement these changes, help us achieve a level of

professionalism that the Fire Service and our citizens

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deserve. Thank you. That's all I have.

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MS. SEARLES: Okay. Thank you. Justin Fox.

JUSTIN FOX

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MR. FOX: Hello, my name is Justin Fox,

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J-u-s-t-i-n, F-o-x. I serve for the City of Midland Fire

Department, and I also serve with the Michigan Professional

Fire Fighters Union and a northern trustee. I am here to

state that I am in full support of these rule changes. I

know it's been said before, but there were many hours put in

on this, and it was democratically elected and approved, and

I think firefighters need to have a high standard of

training, no matter where they're at in the state, be it

volunteer, full time, or part time. So I would like to just

state I am in full support of these Rules. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Bryce Tracy.

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MR. TRACY: Good morning, everybody, and hello to

a lot of my fellow --

MS. SEARLES: Could you -- Bryce, could you state

your name and spell it, please?

BRYCE TRACY

MR. TRACY: Sure. Sorry about that. Bryce Tracy,

that's, B-r-y-c-e, T-r-a-c-y. Good morning to everybody,

and hello to a lot of our brothers and sisters in the Fire

Service. It's nice to see everybody here today. I am

speaking on behalf of myself, as a long-time member of the

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Fire Service and instructor in and around the state of

Michigan. I appreciate all of the efforts of the committee,

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and I am in full support of moving this process forward as

it stands.

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As we evolve and walk through the evolution of the

Fire Service, everybody always has to adapt to change. We

may not always like it, but it's something that we do have

to strive through and live through. We have had plenty of

time to collaborate, discuss, and sometimes agree to

disagree on many issues that come amongst us in the Fire

Service. However, the standards and the rules that are

placed within this process now and moving forward will

provide something that is measurable. We will establish a

standard that Michigan once had as first in leading in the

nation many decades ago and will provide accountability and

safety for everyone involved. No one always likes change,

but change is going to be needed, and this, overall, is the

right direction to go. Again, I am in full support of this

process moving forward. Thank you for your time, and good

to see everybody today.

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MS. SEARLES: Adam Carroll.

ADAM CARROLL

MR. CARROLL: Hello. My name is Adam Carroll,

A-d-a-m, C-a-r-r-o-l-l. I'm the fire chief for the

Heartland Deerfield Fire Authority who I am representing

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today. I am also chair of the Livingston County Training

Committee, a board member of the Michigan Fire Service

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Instructors Association, and a member of both the Michigan

Fire Inspector Society and the Michigan Association of Fire

Chiefs. I have been actively involved in training for over

25 years, and I thank you for the opportunity to discuss

what is likely the most significant event for the Michigan

Fire Service in decades.

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These rules are almost great, save for a couple of

simple flaws that can be easily rectified. Specifically

regarding proposed Rule 29.405, the law does a wonderful job

of identifying and calling for what is required for a person

to demonstrate competency for certification, that is written

and practical testing to national standards. This ensures

that anyone who wants to certify must demonstrate or perform

competently all of the KSA's, or knowledge, skills, and

abilities commensurate to that certification. In their

current form, the rules extrapolate this testing-for-

certification language into a sitting-for-submission

language that does not lead to a student's success. In

reality, we know the students learn in a variety of ways and

at different rates through a combination of visual, audible,

reading and kinesthetic activities, along with varying

combinations of quality instruction, coaching, repetition,

and evaluation.

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To force every student into learning by enduring

is a disservice to any student and is contrary to what we

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now about how we learn. While there are many examples, most

recently and accurately, the new fire marshal curriculum was

ruled out as a virtual program, and the students were all

successful in completion. However, their course time prior

to certifying by testing varied from 29 to 67 hours.

Certainly, there are plenty of students who will

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benefit from and take advantage of in-class opportunities.

In fact, most courses are designed to be delivered in just

that way. However, archaically requiring all the classes,

all the time is counterproductive and unnecessary because we

know how a student learns varies with each student. There

are many students who learn faster and better by different

methods, and in all cases, a good instructor will properly

prepare each student based on that student's learning

styles. This is already provided for in the language of the

law, which in all cases requires successfully demonstrating

competency through written and practical testing to national

standards.

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Regarding Rule 29.418, there is no doubt the fire

chiefs and public safety directors must be nothing less than

competent. However, there are many glaring counter-

indications to being listed in this rule, beginning with

there being no NFPA standards to measure these

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classifications against. In addition, in most cases, they

already fall into one or more of the other classifications,

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making it redundant. Then, and perhaps a larger issue, both

of these classifications are at the sole discretion and

responsibility of the local government entity to appoint.

Just as the law did not due, the rules should not

overreach into creating local government conflicts and the

potential liability implications of rendering a

municipality's selection as unqualified, especially when

these classifications have no national standard to measure

against, and the rules do not add any value to them other

than what -- other than what is already indicated in the

other classifications. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Matt Sahr.

MATTHEW SAHR

MR. SAHR: Hello, my name is Matthew Sahr,

M-a-t-t-h-e-w, last name, Sahr, S-a-h-r. I've been in the

Fire Service for 20 years. I am currently working for the

City of Eastpointe Fire Department. I am also a -- a

representative of the Michigan Professional Fire Fighters.

I am here today to speak in full support of the changes.

I think training is paramount for the Fire Service

and a firefighter, whether it be at a paid-on-call, or

volunteer department, or a career department; it should all

be held to the same standard, and to say anything less than

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that would be detrimental to our trade as a whole and to the

residents that we represent. There is a lot of people on

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here that are making their comments, and I respect all of

them, but it should be known that from my personal

perspective, training is paramount, and it should not be

discounted, whether you're career, paid-on-call, or

volunteer. Thank you for your time.

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MS. SEARLES: Christopher Dean.

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CHRISTOPHER DEAN

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MR. DEAN: Hello. My name is Christopher Dean. I

am the fire chief for --

MS. SEARLES: Could you spell your name, please?

MR. DEAN: I'm sorry. C-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r,

D-e-a-n. I am the fire chief for the Muskegon Heights Fire

Department in Muskegon, Michigan. I am also a member of

many of the boards that are represented, both state and

nationally, including being an executive board member of the

Michigan Fire Service Instructors Association. I want to

first start out by thanking the committee that helped

develop the rules. I believe that the committee that was

formed with Fire Service members, the rules created,

represent the needs of the Fire Service.

One of the rules, in particular, that catch my

attention is the need for continuing the education training.

It equivilates (sic) to approximately -- or basically one

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hour a month, which is a -- not a significant amount of

time, and we should consider that when thinking whether the

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need for continuing education training is necessary.

The other rule that there seems to be some

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controversy is about the memo related to Pro Board. One of

the things with the memo related to Pro Board, the Fire

Marshal has done an excellent job on, is allowing for

that -- the training council curriculum and material to be

utilized as the Pro Board test.

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This provides equity among the different

communities in obtaining that Pro Board certification,

allowing opportunity for those who may be in areas that do

not have a Pro Board testing center nearly to obtain that

and use that certification to advance their life and family,

maybe even move out of the state with that certification. I

worked in an intercity community where there is not a nearby

Pro Board testing site. That may create obstacles for

intercity individuals to obtain that Pro Board

certification. This also applies to rural areas. This

allows for people to be in one test, pay one fee, and obtain

that certification through Pro Board that they can further

enhance their career in life. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Jesse Marcotte.

JESSE MARCOTTE

MR. MARCOTTE: Hello. Jesse Marcotte, J-e-s-s-e,

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M-a-r-c-o-t-t-e. Am I okay to proceed?

MS. SEARLES: Yes; yes.

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MR. MARCOTTE: I rise today in support of the

proposed changes to the Fire Fighters Training Council rule

set. I am not here to represent a single organization or

interest, rather, the best interest of the Fire Service, as

well as the citizens that we serve. I have been fortunate

to see the Fire Service through many different lenses over

the last 23 years. I have served as a fire cadet,

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paid-on-call firefighter, career firefighter, and for the

last ten years, a full-time training coordinator. During

this time, I've had the opportunity and privilege to work

with firefighters on a local, regional, state, and national

level. I also understand the needs of a municipality. I

have served as a member of city council for the last five

years, and currently serve as mayor pro tem.

Training and education are cornerstones of

community risk reduction. Firefighting is an ultra

hazardous, unavoidably dangerous occupation. Today's Fire

Service responds to a multitude of incidents, including

structure fires, water and ice rescues, motor vehicle

accidents, and EMS calls. The hazards we face continue to

evolve, which is why line-of-duty death rates are higher

than they were in the 1970's, despite the fact that there

are less fires, better equipment, and improved personal

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protection equipment.

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Modern construction, synthetic materials in

rapidly changing fire conditions have resulted in less time,

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both through the Fire Service and civilians alike, to escape

a perilous situation. In 2020 alone, our state experienced

122 fire deaths. Tragically, we have lost over 350

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civilians to fires in just the last three years. The fact

that there is currently no annual requirement to maintain

our initial certification is frankly unacceptable. Someone

who received their initial certification 30 years ago does

not have to attend a single hour of training or even belong

to a fire department to maintain their certification.

This would not be tolerated in any other industry;

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not in law enforcement, not in EMS, not in nursing, and not

in teaching, just to name a few. We have not set the bar

high enough. Our annual training requirements are vague,

ambiguous, and completely open to interpretation. We have a

responsibility to hold our industry to a higher standard.

We owe it to ourselves, our peers, and our communities.

This proposed rule set provides every fire

department in our state with a roadmap of basic expectations

related to training and education that is desperately needed

to build a foundation of consistency. This is not a high

standard, to clarify; it is a minimum standard. ISO, as an

example, recommends over 200 hours of annual training per

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member to receive full credit.

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This rule set establishes a minimum of 12 hours of

annual training. That evolution of technology has increased

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the reach of educators in the Fire Service. Traditional

barriers to accessing instructors and educational materials

no longer exist. Urban and suburban and rural fire

departments are able to share lessons from every corner of

our state's borders by leveraging technology and other

resources.

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MS. KEOWN: Mr. Marcotte, your three minutes are

up.

MR. MARCOTTE: Being safe begins with being smart,

and our --

MS. SEARLES: Nicholas Vaught.

NICHOLAS VAUGHT

MR. VAUGHT: Hello. Nicholas Vaught,

N-i-c-h-o-l-a-s, V-a-u-g-h-t. I reside in Chippewa County

in the UP of Michigan, eastern Upper Peninsula, captain with

the Sault Ste. Marie Fire Department. Thank you all

community members for the work you put into this. I just

want to say that I support the rules right now. I think

it's a very good step in the right direction, and that

training is the foundation for safety. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: K. Edmond.

KEVIN EDMOND

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MR. EDMOND: Hi. Kevin Edmond from Sterling

Height Fire Department, fire chief; that's K-e-v-i-n,

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E-d-m-o-n-d. As a chief officer working in three different

states, I think it's of utmost importance to pass this

legislation to establish the continuing education. I am

fully aware of all the different levels of training and

education, and fully support this passage. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Eric Thomas.

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ERIC THOMAS

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MR. THOMAS: Good afternoon -- well, yeah, it's

still morning. Good morning, all. Eric Thomas, E-r-i-c,

T-h-o-m-a-s. I am representing -- I'm with the Detroit

Metro Airport Firefighters, Local 731. I am -- sorry; kids.

I am also in full support of the rules change. I think that

we should move forward. As being also a trained coordinator

for the State of Michigan, and also actively teaching in the

college, I think that this is very important.

I know that in the Fire Service, we always have

been inhibited, and also hard to swallow change, as brought

up earlier, and also advancement in our careers. One thing

important about a career is that there is always things

moving forward and that we should have continuing education

as far as doing our jobs, especially with the

ultra-hazardous things that we have to do. In that point

being, seeing that how the Fire Service is moving along in a

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rapid way, as far as new technology and new things, it is

very important that we have an education that will --

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continuing education, as far as training our firefighters

currently, older and newer ones, so that they can stay up to

date; one, so that we can be safe.

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Yes, NFPA does state minimum standards for us, but

we could always have those minimum standards and exceed

those standards, too, to better our firefighters so we don't

have a lot of line-of-duty deaths. With that being said, I

think that we should move forward and continue on with

this vote, and I am in full support of it.

MS. SEARLES: Heim.

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MR. HEIM: Hello?

MS. SEARLES: Yeah.

MR. HEIM: Can you hear me?

MS. SEARLES: Yes.

STEVE HEIM

MR. HEIM: Hi. So it's Steve Heim, H-e-i-m, is my

last name. Thank you for having me, and thank you for the

committee for all the hard work that you've put in. Like I

said, I'm Steven Heim. I'm a firefighter for the City of

Lincoln Park. I'm a lieutenant. I've been in the Fire

Service going on 30 years. I serve in various affiliations

throughout the state, including as a district vice president

for the Michigan Professional Fire Fighters Union

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representing Wayne, Monroe, and Washtenaw County and the

1100 firefighters there. I chair the Michigan Professional

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Fire Fighters Union health and safety committee. I rise in

support of the rules as proposed.

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I believe the rules establish a floor for

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training, that they are not excessive, that they are just a

minimum standard, and that those competencies will meet the

requirements of MIOSHA as it currently stands for all

employees in the state, irregardless of affiliation, whether

you're full time, or paid, or volunteer. Those standards

are the same, the concerns are the same, the risks are there

for all of us. The standard is written in a way that I

think recognizes a fair standard that could be applied

across the entire state.

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I believe it's reasonable that the compromises

that have been made have been done with the best intentions

for the Fire Service, and that these rules are going to

provide a safe environment for all of us. I think the top

priority in the state needs to be making sure that the

firefighters are trained to a level that they are capable of

surviving and living a long life in the safest manner

possible. For recruitment and retention, the priority

should be that they are able to work and do this in a

successful way, and go home to their families, and be able

to flourish. This -- the rules and the standards have to be

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applied in a way that will make that possible. It is a

little bit of a challenge for some folks, but the 12 hours a

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year is a minimum and something can clearly be done and

needs to be done in a way that manage the risks that are

associated with this job. It has to be done in a way that's

safe for everyone so that we can all go home.

Like I said, I rise in support of the rules as

proposed, and I think you for you time.

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MS. SEARLES: Chris Krotche.

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MR. KROTCHE: Good?

MS. SEARLES: Yeah.

CHRIS KROTCHE

MR. KROTCHE: Hi. My name is Chris Krotche,

C-h-r-i-s, K-r-o-t-c-h-e. I am a retired battalion chief

with 33 years of service, and I am currently the fire chief

of Armada Township. I am speaking on my own behalf, and I

rise in support of all the changes, and I would also like to

thank the committee members.

I have the unique situation that I worked on both

sides of the fire department, both in a career department

and in a combination department, and I can undoubtedly say

that I believe this training is important. It is the

minimum. With a combination department, we have a low

volume of calls, low frequency, so that's why we believe

this is imperative, this minimum training is required.

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We -- at our department, we (inaudible) because we do see

the value of it.

I also believe that when it comes to the fire

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chiefs that we should have a level of training with leading

such a department. I rise in support. I thank you for your

time, and that's all. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Muskegon fire instructors.

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MARK CLEVELAND

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MR. CLEVELAND: Mark Cleveland, M-a-r-k,

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C-l-e-v-e-l-a-n-d. I am here today representing Egelston

Township, the Muskegon Area fire chief, and the Michigan

Association of Fire Chiefs. The set rule 29.404, number 5,

is the belief of many that this should be deleted in its

entirety. An MOU does not belong within the rules, nor the

law. It should live outside of that. As such, we believe

that should be replaced with,

"The Bureau shall recognize and offer reciprocity

to any individual holding or obtaining a certification

from a nationally recognized, accredited organization

that meets the NFPA standard at the time of issue."

Replacing the overcomplicated and inefficient MOU

system with what is -- what I just described would resolve

the issue, and if an MOU is necessary, it should live

outside the law and rules.

We are further concerned that the require on

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certain level a certification -- for example, fire chief or

fire officer -- is overreaching of the law. There is not

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any place within Public Act 291 that mandates certification

levels except for Firefighter I and Firefighter II.

Firefighter I is required for paid-on-call or volunteer

firefighters, and Firefighter II is required for all career

firefighters. This also identifies the difference that many

have said there is no difference within the state, and there

shouldn't be, but within the rules and the law, we have

already identified a difference in training standards based

on full time or paid-on-call volunteer. Rule 29.418 states,

"An individual who is a firefighter of a

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recognized fire department or public safety department,

who currently holds council certification, regardless

of his or her rank, responsibilities, or

certifications, shall obtain" -- 12 hours of continuing

education.

We are proposing that this state "continuing education

annually, in an amount certified as sufficient to meet

MIOSHA."

In Public Act 291, we're required to meet MIOSHA

general industry standards. They do call for minimum -- or

continuing education specific to and commensurate to the

duties they are expected to perform. This, in fact, could

set a department up for failure if they think 12 hours is

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the minimum number of hours that they need to do to be

compliant. If an incident or an investigation were to

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occur, the department could state, "We met -- we met the

annual hours set forth by the MFFTC," but MIOSHA determines

that to be inadequate. Now you've set up two different

regulatory standards by two different agencies. This

measurement tool is arbitrary and inappropriate, and

specific hours on recommended training without a source for

justification --

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MS. KEOWN: Mr. Cleveland, your three minutes are

up.

MR. CLEVELAND: Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Jim Daveluy.

JIM DAVELUY

MR. DAVELUY: Jim Daveluy, J-i-m, D-a-v-e-l-u-y.

I live in Midland County. I'm a City of Midland

firefighter, and I want to say I support these changes.

When I came back to Michigan from Tennessee in 2014, I had

to apply for my paramedic license back. I had to show that

I had been working as a paramedic and completed continued

education as a paramedic, but my fire certs were good

regardless of whether I had been on a fire truck, touched a

hose, or swung an axe.

It's time for us to have continuing education in

the Fire Service. It's a dangerous occupation, and fires

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don't care if you're a volunteer or a career. So I rise in

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support. Thank you for your time.

MS. SEARLES: Shawn Allen.

SHAWN ALLEN

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MR. ALLEN: Good Morning, everyone. Shawn Allen,

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S-h-a-w-n, A-l-l-e-n. I'm a fire marshal for the City of

Sterling Heights. Presently, I hold certificates as a

Firefighter I and II; I'm a fire inspector, a fire

investigator, fire instructor. I'm with the technical

rescue team for the City of Sterling Heights, the County and

Michigan Task Force 1. I'm also a HAZMAT technician.

So for myself, I would be required to have quite a

bit of continuing education. I am speaking in support of

the requirements on the Public Act 291. I believe all the

requirements as written are obtainable, they are reasonable,

the act should be adopted and moved forward. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Kevin Retzloff.

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KEVIN RETZLOFF

MR. RETZLOFF: Hi. Kevin Retzloff, K-e-v-i-n,

R-e-t-z-l-o-f-f. I am with the Midland Fire Department.

I'm here on my own to just to speak of my support for the

rule changes as they are proposed. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Mike Vogt.

MIKE VOGT

MR. VOGT: Sorry about that. I had to un-mute.

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Mike Vogt, M-i-k-e, last name is, V-o-g-t. I'm the

assistant fire chief and fire marshal for the City of Burton

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Fire Department. I'm here representing myself as a fire

service professional --

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on mute, Mike.

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MR. VOGT: All right. Sorry about that. The

proposed rules, I am in full favor of the letter that was

sent out by the Michigan Association of Fire Chiefs with the

proposed recommended changes to the rules that

were (inaudible) more my concern with continuing education

isn't so much of the education amount, it's the enforcement

of that. I just see that a firefighter not meeting this

obligation, the enforcement powers of the state is going to

fall back on the local municipality, and I just see that

causing a significant hardship, again, not on the actual

firefighter but on the municipality itself. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Liam Karroll. You're on mute, Liam.

MR. KARROLL: Thank you. Can you hear me now?

MS. SEARLES: Yes.

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LIAM KARROLL

MR. KARROLL: Thank you. Liam Karroll, L-i-a-m,

K-a-r-r-o-l-l. I rise in full support of the rules as

presented. I am a retired Michigan fire chief, an

instructor-at-large, a program coordinator at a

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college-based regional training center in the State of

Michigan, and an adjunct professor.

I believe that allowing people to have a

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certificate to prove their ability goes well beyond just the

piece of paper. Possession of a certificate is not enough.

Education is a totality of experiences. As we expect our

doctors and our lawyers to have the same totality of

experience, we should expect our firefighters to have the

same. It's not just a matter of taking a test or

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challenging an exam. NFPA JPR documentation needs to occur.

One of the sidebars to this is that in the educational

arena, to offer credit hours towards a degree based upon

prior life experiences or the certificates that we hold

requires that they have that totality of education. It's

not just a certificate. The Higher Learning Commission,

which regulates colleges, requires it.

To not have a full course behind the student that

you're giving credit hours and simply having an examination

could put the regional -- college-based regional training

centers in harms way with the Higher Learning Commission.

The accreditation agencies that are out there I believe will

also stand against the idea of challenging for

certification, wanting you to take full course work. I

believe that having the ability to challenge or just simply

having a certificate for our needs will also put us in a

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difficult spot for reciprocity from state to state; not

agency to agency, but state to state.

For instance, the State of Ohio requires that we

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specify for reciprocity the number of medics that are tied

to each NFPA and JPR. A certificate does not prove that,

regardless what other agencies may believe. I fear that

certification mills will occur. I can vouch for the fact

that many people can teach to certification level, and teach

the necessary needs for the examination. That does not mean

that you have a fully trained firefighter before you. You

have somebody who is coached up to speed, and I fear

those mills. Colleges and those who do testing routinely

could easily become those mills. That it pays to pass

certification process for reciprocity does not hold merit.

I believe that continued education as it's

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presented is a floor, not a ceiling. We should look to

improve upon that. I fully support continuing education.

The industry changes rapidly. This will require that we

stay abreast and will give the mechanism to do so.

MS. KEOWN: Mr. Karroll, your three minutes is up.

MR. KARROLL: Thank you for your time.

MS. SEARLES: John Polzin.

MR. POLZIN: Hello?

MS. SEARLES: Yes. If you would state your name

and spell it, please, and if you're representing an

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organization.

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JOHN POLZIN

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MR. POLZIN: Yes. My name is John Polzin,

J-o-h-n, P-o-l-z-i-n. I'm with the City of Midland Fire

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Department, and I would just like to state that I am in full

support of the changes as written. Thank you very much.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Chris Lince.

CHRIS LINCE

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MR. LINCE: Chris Lince, C-h-r-i-s, L-i-n-c-e,

lieutenant with the City of Midland Fire Department, here on

my own behalf. I've been in the Fire Service for 30 years,

and it's time that we move ahead. These requirements are

minimums and well within obtainable reach. I fully support

these rules. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Thank you. We will go to the phone

lines now. I'll read the last four digits, and then I'll

ask you if you have any comments or not. 0075.

UNKNOWN 0075: No comment.

MS. SEARLES: Who am I -- who is speaking?

(No verbal response)

MS. SEARLES: 9162.

MR. BOURGEOIS: Hello?

MS. SEARLES: Yes.

DOUG BOURGEOIS

MR. BOURGEOIS: Hi. Doug Bourgeois, Beaver Creek

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Fire Department. I would like to say I'm not full

support --

MS. SEARLES: And could you spell your name,

please? Could you spell your name please? Thank you.

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MR. BOURGEOIS: Yes. Doug, D-o-u-g, last name,

Bourgeois, B-, as in boy, o-u-r-g-e-o-i-s. I am in support

of the rules as changed, although many people brought some

great points, and probably need to be looked at maybe in the

future, but moving forward, I believe it would be awesome

for the Fire Service. Thank you very much. Everyone stay

safe out there.

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MS. SEARLES: 9162, if you would un-mute.

(No verbal response)

MS. SEARLES: Okay. I'll go to the next one.

0286, if you would un-mute.

MR. SCOTT: Yes. Can you hear --

MS. SEARLES: Yes. Give us your name, and

organization you're representing, and spelling your name.

ROB SCOTT

MR. SCOTT: Yes. Rob, R-o-b, Scott, S-c-o-t-t.

I'm out of Wayne County, Michigan Professional Firefighters

for the last 22 years, currently a firefighter in the City

of Southfield. I rise in support of these rule changes, and

we do a job that could possibly killed us. It has killed

several firefighters.

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My wife is a school teacher of 19 years. She has

to do continuing education every year. Also, we have to do

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continuing education with our medical licenses, either for

your basic EMT or paramedic. Nurses have to do continuing

education. This is long overdue and needs to be passed.

Thank you for your time.

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MS. SEARLES: Thank you. 2701; 2701.

(No verbal response)

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MS. SEARLES: 0286, if you would un-mute.

(No verbal response)

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MS. SEARLES: 3213, if you would un-mute.

(No verbal response)

MS. SEARLES: 5333, if you would un-mute.

(No verbal response)

MS. SEARLES: 3213, did you have something to say?

MR. STEEBY: No comment.

MS. SEARLES: All right. Could you give your

name?

ANDY STEEBY

MR. STEEBY: Andy, A-n-d-y, Steeby,

S-t-e-e-b-, as in boy, y; Wayne County Community College

District, ROTC course manager.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. 7028.

(No verbal response)

MS. SEARLES: It looks like we have some others

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that have raised their hand. How about Sean Canto?

SEAN CANTO

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MR. CANTO: Hi, good afternoon. My name is Sean

Canto. I'm the fire chief for the City of Rochester Hills.

I've been in the Fire Service for --

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MS. SEARLES: Sean, could you spell your name,

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please?

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MR. CANTO: S-e-a-n, C-a-n-t-o. I've been in the

Fire Service for 30 years, seven of my last years of service

have been here in the State of Michigan. The importance of

training cannot be overstated in the world of emergency

services. We're like safetys-at-risk. Competence of

responders should be paramount. When the citizens of our

community call for help, they expect and deserve the very

best from us when we respond, be it a career, volunteer or

paid-on-call organization. Quality training programs are

one of the highest priorities, and as fire service

organizations, look to ensure that members are prepared for

the daily challenges and demands of the job. As the

expectations and demands for the fire service profession to

continue to evolve, the expectation of future fire service

leaders must be to adapt to meet these new challenges.

Implementing a credible, professional development

framework, which these rules do, encourages and shapes

knowledgeable, well-rounded, and experienced fire service

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members. In fact, it should help to form the very

foundation of a positive fire service organizational

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culture. The Michigan Fire Service needs to transform from

a trade to a profession. A fire service leadership must set

policies, procedures, and standards that include language

supporting the portability of our training and education for

the benefits of next generation firefighters.

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real concern in our profession. Just because you were

certified ten years ago does not mean you are still

competent in doing the job today. This question has become

important in states such as Michigan that currently do not

require re-certification or continuing education.

Unfortunately, the Michigan Fire Service has lagged behind

in meeting national standards. Most of us focus on the

present and don't ask "what if" type of questions for the

future, and that's why the Michigan Fire Service has lagged

behind. We need to move forward with the approval of these

rules to put the Michigan Fire Service on equal footing with

the remaining of the American Fire Service. There is a

beloved phrase in the fire service: "200 years of tradition

unimpeded by progress." I think the majority of the

Michigan Fire Service has recognized it's time to bring us

into the 21st Century. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Joe Grutza.

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JOE GRUTZA

MR. GRUTZA: Hello. My name is Joe Grutza,

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spelled, J-o-e, G-r-u-t-z-a. I am a retired fire fighter

from Fenton. I stand in support of the rules as written.

Also, I want to thank all the members of the Michigan Fire

Fighters Training Council, the state fire marshal, and all

the fire service that attended these meetings. I know, from

the past, the amount of work that was put in, and I'm really

impressed with the results here.

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Again, I stand in support of the rules as written.

I think we need to all come together and make sure that we

can help every member of the Fire Service in our state meet

these requirements as written. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: C. Pichan.

MR. PICHAN: Hello, ma'am. Am I coming through?

MS. SEARLES: Yes.

CHARLES PICHAN

MR. PICHAN: Captain Charles Pichan of the Detroit

Fire Department Regional Training Center, C-h-a-r-l-e-s,

P-i-c-h-a-n. Although no document can be perfectly written,

this is definitely a step in the right direction, and I am

in full support of moving forward. Thank you for your time

and efforts.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Mike Harper.

MIKE HARPER

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MR. HARPER: Hello. I am Mike Harper, M-i-k-e,

H-a-r-p-e-r, long time instructor and adjunct professor, and

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training over throughout the state for the last 30 years

plus. I'm in support of the 291 rules, as proposed. This

will bring the safety of the firefighters up to date through

training and certification.

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As it was said earlier, no matter where you work

throughout the state, the emergency and the fire you will be

responding to will not know where you come from; if it's

career, part time, on-call, or volunteer. But with

up-to-date training and continuing education in the change

of fire behavior, building instruction and many, many others

dealing with tactics and strategy will help you be safe as

possible on the fire ground. So with this, I am in support

of the rules as proposed. I thank you for everybody that

helped out with these rules. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: R. Bebeau.

ROGER BEBEAU

MR. BEBEAU: Hi. Roger Bebeau, R-o-g-e-r,

B-e-b-e-a-u. I'm here representing myself, a firefighter in

the City of Midland. I have had the privilege of being a

volunteer firefighter for ten years, and a full-paid

firefighter for 20. I think these are changes that we need,

and I rise in support of it as written.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Nick Gettel.

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NICHOLAS GETTEL

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MR. GETTEL: Hello. Nicholas Gettel,

N-i-c-h-o-l-a-s, G-e-t-t-e-l. I rise in full support of

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this, and I believe it's time to keep our fire departments

moving forward, and I am a member of the Midland

Professional Firefighters. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Josh Gray.

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MR. GRAY: Hello. Josh Gray, J-o-s-h, G-r-a-y,

and I would like to say that I come from Detroit Metro

Airport Fire Department, and I am speaking for my own views.

I am rising in support of the new rules as written. As a

firefighter who is maybe not much of 30-plus years

experience, but just under a decade of experience, and have

worked for both, you know, paid-on-call, volunteer, and

career departments.

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I believe that training is the epitome of what

will progress us forward, and I think in order for us to

stay competitive as a state, we need to progress our

training forward and hold ourselves to a higher standard to

make us the goal instead of falling behind the rest of the

country. I yield the rest of my time. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Chris Coughlin, if you

would un-mute.

MR. COUGHLIN: Okay. Can you hear me now?

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MS. SEARLES: Yes.

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MR. COUGHLIN: Okay. Chris Coughlin, C-h-r-i-s,

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C-o-u-g-h-l-i-n. I am the chief of the City of Midland Fire

Department, and I was a representative of the Michigan

Association of Fire Chiefs during the drafting of the

changes to Public Act 291. One of the things that we took

into consideration during that drafting was the MIOSHA Part

74 requirements, that firefighters be trained commensurate

with the duties they are expected to perform.

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I think that we may have an issue here in that

requiring continuing ed and specific hours of continuing

ed for firefighters in different locations is not

necessarily going to be accepted by MIOSHA. We have nothing

to indicate that MIOSHA would accept any of these

requirements that are in -- in this rule set, and I think

that should be a concern. I think it should go back and

probably be looked at a little closer, and I think a

conversation needs to occur between rule makers and MIOSHA

before we get into this any deeper than we currently are.

The other thing I would like to touch on is, the

intent was to make it easier for volunteer firefighters,

career firefighters, on-call firefighters to have

reciprocity in the State of Michigan. I think, if anything,

we've kind of muddied the waters on that. We were looking

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for a mechanism to recognize NFPA-based education

universally, and what we're seeing is an MOU for every

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class, and that was not the intent, and I disagree with this

wholeheartedly. I think we're on the right track, but I

think we've -- we need to go back and revisit this. And

that's my peace. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Justin Holmes. We can't hear you,

Justin. Justin, do you want to try again?

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(No verbal response)

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MS. SEARLES: Okay. Well, if we don't have

anybody else that wishes to speak at this time, we'll take a

ten-minute recess. But I also want to remind you, if you

are on the video, if you want to participate, you click on

the "participant" down at the bottom, and then a screen will

come up, and you will chose the option to "raise your hand."

So we will be back at 12:19.

(Off the record)

MS. SEARLES: We both had an issue with using the

"raise the hand" function. So if you want to talk, you can

turn on your camera and raise your hand, and I'll go down

the list, and call on you. I am not seeing any -- oh, here

we've got one. Brother Love.

MR. LOVE: Hello?

MS. SEARLES: If you would state your name, and

spell your name, and what organization you're representing?

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CHRISTOPHER LOVE

MR. LOVE: Hello. My name is Christopher Love. I

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work with the Battle Creek Fire Department. I'm a captain,

and I've been on the department, it will be 29 years in May.

And I am just speaking in support of the rule -- proposed

rule changes.

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I feel it's very important in our line of work

that we have updating of training and that training is a

very key component of this, and it's, you know, not

unreasonable at all for us to expect to have continuing ed

credits just like, you know, we do for medical or any other

profession that has new information and data coming in. So

I rise in support of this. I live in Calhoun County in

Battle Creek, Michigan.

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MS. SEARLES: Could I have you spell your name

also, please?

MR. LOVE: Yes, C-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r, L-o-v-e.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you.

MR. LOVE: Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Anthony Watts.

ANTHONY WATTS

MR. WATTS: Good afternoon. My name is, Anthony

Watts, A-n-t-h-o-n-y, W-a-t-t-s. I'm a lieutenant with the

Detroit Fire Department Training Division, and I speak in

support of this document. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Courtland Chief.

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STEVE MOJZUK

MR. MOJZUK: Yes. Steve Mojzuk, S-t-e-v-e,

M-o-j-z-u-k, Courtland Township fire chief, and I am

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speaking on my own behalf. And I approve of the new rule

change. I would like to see more volunteer, smaller

departments on here speaking their mind, but since they're

not here, I -- I do support the training -- the continuing

ed training as -- as it's written, because I think we do

need it. I just wish more small departments would speak out

about it. And that's all I've got to say. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Jeff Frieden- --

Friedenstab.

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JEFF FRIEDENSTAB

MR. FRIEDENSTAB: Yes, my name is Jeff

Friedenstab; it's, J-e-f-f, F-r-i-e-d-e-n-s-t-a-b. I'm with

the Iron Mountain Fire Department, Dickinson County, up here

in the Upper Peninsula. I am for moving forward with these,

but I also would like the reciprocity area to be looked at

again. Thank you for your time.

MS. SEARLES: Lieutenant Jamal Mickles.

JAMAL MICKLES

MR. MICKLES: Good afternoon. Lieutenant Jamal

Mickles with the Detroit Fire Department Training Division.

And I --

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MS. SEARLES: Could you spell your name, please?

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As a highly involved instructor with the State of Michigan,

I speak in support of this document. It is a flawed

document, and I'm looking forward to being made aware and

being involved in the process of adapting some of the

changes to some of the concerns that have been presented

today. However, I do believe it's time to -- for Michigan

to come into the 21st Century in the fire service, and this

will bring us out of the 60's, and start to move more toward

the future of the fire service as we become truly the

profession that we should be. Thank you.

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MS. SEARLES: Jeffrey Forbes.

JEFFREY FORBES

MR. FORBES: Good afternoon. My name is Jeffrey

Forbes, that is, J-e-f-f-r-e-y, Forbes, F-o-r-b-e-s. I am a

EMS captain with the Detroit Fire Department Training

Center. I speak in support of this document. We, as a

whole and as a state, need to continue to move the fire

service to the future, and keep moving us forward as a

professional -- as working in a professional atmosphere, we

need to keep moving us forward and keep all of our training

at top notch, similar to what they have done with EMS over

the years. Again, I do speak in support of this document.

MS. SEARLES: Robert Massey.

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ROBERT MASSEY

MR. MASSEY: Good morning. My name is Robert

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Massey, R-o-b-e-r-t, M-a-s-s-e-y. And I am in full -- I'm a

lieutenant at the Detroit Regional Training Center, and I am

in full support about this document.

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MS. SEARLES: Is there anybody else that would

like to speak? If you would turn your camera on, and raise

your hand if you're having an issue. Captain -- Captain

Seal, North Oakland County Fire.

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TIMOTHY SEAL

MR. SEAL: Good afternoon, everybody. Captain

Timothy Seal, T-i-m-o-t-h-y, S-e-a-l. I am speaking on my

own behalf. At this point, I'm not going to rise for or

against the document on the list here. I do have some

concerns and may be offering experience. While I do believe

as a training officer in my department and having had the

privilege of serving both as a full-time MPFFU and IAFF

firefighter and as a union president at one time, and now as

a full-time captain and recruitment and retraining officer

in a paid on-call environment, I agree that training is of

vital importance.

And I understand that theory -- well -- however,

what I am finding in a paid-on-call environment, is as we

continue to increase the training requirement with paid-on-

call individuals, our recruitment and retention is already

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somewhat destroyed and is getting further hampered by

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increasing training requirements. I agree that it is

needed. I don't know what the correct vehicle for

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enforcement is and how some smaller departments can fund the

required training. People are busy as it is, as we know,

with everything going on. I wish I had the answer, but I

don't. But I know it does affect the recruitment and

retention.

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I know that there is talk about this potentially

being a State oversight with a unfunded mandate. We're all

aware of how that works with smaller budgets. I do believe,

overall, we are on track. It is a good document. I don't

know that those concerns are worth squashing the whole

document, and I also commend the individuals who have all

done the rule changes, because I know they spent countless

hours in changing those rules.

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I do think that we could brush up the reciprocity

a little bit. The State had been all over the place for

years, as to what training was and wasn't accepted, and I

think if they've got and met the requirements, they should

receive the reciprocity, whether they were through RAFT or

another professional organization, without too much

leg-work. I think everybody should credit their time in

training.

That is all. I yield the rest of my time. I hope

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everybody stays safe and have a good afternoon.

MS. SEARLES: Robert Seal -- or Smith. Excuse me.

Robert Smith.

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ROBERT SMITH

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MR. SMITH: Yes, thank you. Robert Smith,

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R-o-b-e-r-t, S-m-i-t-h. I am the fire chief in the Dexter

Area Fire Department with over 40 years in the Fire Service.

I speak in opposition to this document as written. I

believe in general is it a good document or a good

philosophy. But my concern, I agree with my colleagues

regarding reciprocity and continuing education. But the

document itself, I find several issues, is first, all of

these certifications in this document require membership in

a fire department, when in fact, you can get NFPA

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certification or other certifications without being a member

of a fire department in the state of Michigan. And this

continues in to the disciplinary process, which is unclear,

as to whether that applies simply to instructors or across

the board for various certifications. In one area, the

council can strip an individual of their certifications for

the State of Michigan, but that doesn't necessarily strip

them of their NFPA certification or Pro Board certification,

so do we get in a round-robin of stripping of certification

in the State of Michigan only to reapply through

reciprocity. I see some concerns there with the way the

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document is written and laid out. And I thank you for

allowing me to speak today.

MS. SEARLES: Brian Rayle.

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BRIAN RAYLE

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MR. RAYLE: Hi. My name is Brian Rayle,

B-r-i-a-n, R-a-y-l-e. I am instructor with Detroit Fire

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Department Regional Training Center. I do have experience

in the volunteer, paid-on-call, full-time sector, including

steel mill firefighting. I wholeheartedly agree with all

the updates, yes. Thank you for your time.

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MS. SEARLES: Thank you. Captain Edwards.

JAMES EDWARDS

MR. EDWARDS: Good afternoon -- or good morning to

everyone. My name is James Edwards, J-a-m-e-s, E-d-w-a-r-d-

s. I am a captain at the Detroit Fire Regional Training

Center. We are in full support of this. We recognize this

as being a first step for us to raise the bar for not only

training that we will be able to provide, but also training

for ourselves. We always challenge our students. We always

let them know that this is an evolving career choice, so we

have to lead by example. So this is a very strong first

step for us, and I congratulate everyone that worked on this

and that will continue to improve this document.

MS. SEARLES: Stacy Taylor.

STACY TAYLOR

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MR. TAYLOR: Hi. I'm lieutenant Stacy Taylor from

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the Detroit Fire Department Regional Training Center.

MS. SEARLES: Can you spell your name, please?

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MR. TAYLOR: Yes, S-t-a-c-y, T-a-y-l-o-r. And I

am in full support of the document. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Thank you. I'm going to check to

see if anybody has their hand raised, if they would like to

be called on. Also, if you are unable to speak, or would

still like to send comments, that can go to: LARA,

L-A-R-A, hyphen, BFS@michigan.gov. Does anyone else wish to

comment on the rules? Does anybody else wish to comment on

the rules at this time? Does anybody else wish to comment

on the rules at this time? We have one more. Bigger.

MR. BIGGER: Hi. This Don Bigger. I am president

of the --

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MS. SEARLES: Don, if you could spell your name,

please?

DONALD BIGGER

MR. BIGGER: Yes, Donald, D-o-n-a-l-d, Bigger,

B-, as in boy, i-g-g-e-r. I am currently the president of

the Michigan Fire Service Instructors Association and

retired from the Plainfield Fire Department after 34 years

of a combination department with full time and paid-on-call.

I also have been involved with the coalition for many years,

and was part of the 291 re-write. And I would like to say

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we support the document as written. There was a lot of

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time; there was a lot of input. The people who have

concerns now also had representatives and had input as a

democratic process, and it was voted on and passed.

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A couple -- address a couple comments that were

made about the difference between full time and part time.

We run an inspectors conference every year in Traverse City,

and a lot of the comments that we get from paid-on-call fire

departments or volunteer fire departments -- which I was

glad to see many in the Upper had called, and with comments

on some of the part time, like (inaudible) -- is that the

departments that aren't full time have requested and made a

lot of comments at the inspectors conference that we need to

set a standard that everybody went by. By not having a

standard that all departments are by -- they had problems

getting it funded at the local departments. If it wasn't

funded, then they didn't have the trainings. So they always

encouraged us, at the instructors, to -- whenever we worked

on the document, to make sure it was inclusive to everybody,

not -- not a difference, not a difference between career and

volunteers.

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So the continuing ed part is what they talked

about a lot. If it's not a requirement, that the state

isn't requirement -- requiring it like they do EMS,

teachers, police officers, then the locals, they don't fund

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it, and then it's not possible.

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So in closing, for my years around and listening

to everybody, we like the way it's written, and we support

it the way it's written. Thank you.

MS. SEARLES: Does anybody else wish to comment on

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the rules? I'll go through it again and check for any hands

up. If you are unable to use the hand function, if you

would turn your camera on and raise your hand. Does anyone

else wish to comment on the rules? One more time, does

anybody else wish to comment on the rules?

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If there is no further comments at this time, I

hereby declare the hearing closed. The record will remain

open until 5:00 p.m. today for any other comments you may

wish to share about the proposed rules. Again, you can

email comments to: LARA-BFS@michigan.gov, and thanks for

attending.

(Exhibits 1 and 2 marked)

(Hearing concluded at 12:37 p.m.)

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administrative 1:4

5:7,10 10:2 11:25 answer 55:6

15:12,15 answers 8:10

annually 35:19

B- 42:6 58:20

B-e-b-e-a-u 47:20

B-r-i-a-n 57:6

15:3,8,11,14 16:2

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22:2 25:17 26:5,6

26:9,11,13,17,18

26:21 56:19,22

boards 25:16

Bob 18:18

A-b-b-e-y 12:9

A-d-a-m 21:24

A-l-e-x 19:18

A-l-l-e-n 37:6

A-n-d-y 43:20

A-n-t-h-o-n-y 51:23

a.m 1:7 5:2,16

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12:8

abilities 22:17

ability 14:22 39:4

39:24

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57:18

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Academy 11:17

accept 6:23,25 11:6

11:6 49:15

accepted 11:12,18

18:14 49:14 55:19

accessing 29:5

accidents 27:22

accountability

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accreditation 39:21

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accrediting 15:4

accurately 23:4

achieve 19:24

act 5:10 12:11 13:8

13:22 35:3,21

37:14,16 49:7

active 13:9

actively 22:5 30:16

activities 22:23

actual 38:16

Adam 2:17 21:21,22

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adapt 21:6 44:22

adapting 53:6

add 24:11

addition 24:1

additional 16:1

address 13:5 17:4

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addressed 9:8 16:23

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adheres 15:16

Adjourn/Adjourn...

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adopted 17:24

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adopting 13:22

adoption 11:24

advance 26:14

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back 8:10 13:23

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balance 10:16

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anybody 50:11 54:6

58:7,11,12 60:5

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bottom 6:7,10,13

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Brian 4:4 57:3,4,5

brief 12:12 18:6

appear 8:11

advancement 30:20 appears 11:21

advantage 23:9

advise 7:8

applied 32:13 33:1

applies 26:19 56:18 base 17:14,22

barriers 29:5

Affairs 1:2 5:6

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affiliation 32:9

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afternoon 30:10

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53:15 54:11 56:1

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appreciate 8:4 9:25 baseline 17:18

16:4 21:2

approval 45:18

approve 52:5

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basically 25:25

battalion 12:9 16:19 bring 8:18 45:23

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beginning 23:24

begins 29:12

behalf 7:9 13:8

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brothers 20:23

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Alex 2:14 19:9,17

alike 28:4

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attention 8:18 25:24

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better 8:7 12:20

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beyond 39:4

Andrea 1:10 6:7

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BFS@michigan.gov

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Ann 1:9 5:3

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annual 10:20 28:8

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C-o-u-g-h-l-i-n 49:4

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FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

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command 10:23

commend 55:14

commensurate 11:1 conducting 5:6,9

concluded 60:18

conditions 28:3

Cairnduff 2:13

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Calhoun 51:13

call 2:3 6:15,20

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called 58:8 59:10

calling 5:16 22:12

calls 27:22 33:24

camera 50:20 54:7

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certifications 16:3

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certified 1:17 35:19

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certify 15:4 22:15

certifying 23:7

certs 36:21

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circulation 5:19

cities 15:24

citizens 19:25 27:7

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city 13:20 16:20

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claims 16:24

clarify 28:24

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comment 5:10 6:21

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committee 7:25 8:1

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confusion 9:3

congratulate 57:22

consider 26:2

consideration 16:5

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consistency 28:23

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continue 12:18

27:22 31:10 44:21

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continued 36:20

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44:4,8

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challenges 14:24

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challenging 39:10

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change 21:6,16,17

30:14,19 47:11

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capable 32:20

capacity 15:14

capital 14:4

captain 13:7 18:11

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career 9:19 10:13

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careers 30:20

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cases 23:15,18 24:1

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causing 38:16

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ceiling 40:16

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13:19,21 14:20,23 continues 56:17

classes 23:11

classifications 24:1

24:2,4,10,13

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50:13

closed 60:12

closer 49:18

26:11 28:19

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43:21 44:14

company 14:7

Competence 44:12

competencies 32:7

competency 22:13

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continuing 16:22

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30:5,22 31:3

35:16,18,23 36:24

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47:11 49:12,12

51:10 52:8 56:11

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45:11

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closing 15:21 60:2

controversy 26:5

conversation 49:19

conversations 9:1

coordinator 1:11,12

27:11 30:15 38:25

corner 29:7

cornerstones 27:17

Corporation 1:17

correct 55:3

changing 28:3 55:16 coached 40:11

Charles 3:14 46:17

46:18

competently 22:16

competitive 48:19

completed 36:20

completely 13:16

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compliant 10:24

36:2

coaching 22:24

coalition 58:24

collaborate 21:9

collaborative 16:11

16:13 17:23

colleagues 56:10

college 30:17 43:21

college-based 39:1

39:19

chat 7:1

check 58:6 60:6

chief 9:18 12:9

16:19 18:4 21:24

25:11,14 30:2,3

33:14,15 34:11

35:1 38:2,24 44:4

49:4 52:1,4 56:6

center 26:13 39:1

46:19 53:18 54:4

57:7,16 58:2

comply 5:17

component 51:9

Coughlin 3:19

48:23,25 49:2,3,3

centers 39:20

colleges 39:16 40:12 compromises 32:15 council 5:8 7:17

Century 45:24 53:9 chiefs 9:23 14:8

combination 9:18

22:22 33:21,23

58:23

concern 8:12,20

14:18 38:11 45:9

49:17 56:10

10:1,7 11:20 12:2

17:2 26:8 27:4,15

35:14 46:6 56:20

counted 9:9

CER 1:16

certain 35:1

Certainly 23:8

certificate 11:5,12

18:24 22:5 23:22

34:4,12 38:9 49:6

Chippewa 29:17

choice 57:20

combinations 22:24 concerned 34:25

come 8:19 21:10

46:11 47:9 48:10

50:15 53:9

concerns 8:9,14,18

9:7 15:1 16:16,23 counterproductive

17:3 19:1 32:11

53:7 54:15 55:13

56:25 59:3

counter- 23:23

39:4,5,15,25 40:5 chose 50:15

certificates 11:17

37:7 39:13

Chris 2:6,25 3:8,19

9:13,14,15 33:9

23:12

countless 55:15

country 15:9,12

comes 34:3

certification 15:8,18

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Dean 2:19 25:8,9,10 desperately 28:22

59:19

effort 16:11,13

County 18:4,12

22:1 29:17 32:1

36:16 37:10 42:21 deaths 28:6 31:9

43:21 51:13 52:17 decade 48:14

25:10,13

death 27:23

despite 27:24

documentation

39:10

doing 30:23 45:11

Don 58:14,16

17:23

efforts 9:25 21:2

46:23

destroyed 55:1

determines 36:4

detrimental 25:1

Egelston 34:10

54:9

decades 21:15 22:8

declare 60:12

deeper 49:20

Deerfield 21:25

define 13:13

definitely 46:21

degradation 45:8

degree 39:12

Detroit 13:20 30:12 Donald 4:7 58:18,19 either 43:3

couple 22:9 59:5,5

course 12:16 23:6

39:17,23 43:22

courses 23:10

Courtland 52:1,4

covering 5:15

create 26:17

46:18 48:10 51:24 doubt 23:21

elected 20:10

Electronic 1:17

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everybody 6:3,6

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FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

March 24, 2021

16:10,15 18:15

20:16,22,24 21:6

21:20 47:15 54:11 fair 8:4 12:17 32:13

55:23 56:1 59:14

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42:1,10 44:4,5,9

44:17,20,21,25

45:2,3,4,14,17,19 forth 36:4

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first 7:25 21:14

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G

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FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

March 24, 2021

hail 13:6,16

39:13 40:14 48:20 incident 36:2

holding 15:18 34:18 incidents 27:20

28:17

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head 6:8

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investigators 11:9

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hold 6:5 10:11 11:4

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FIRE FIGHTER TRAINING DIVISION ADMINISTRATIVE RULES PUBLIC HEARING

March 24, 2021

Lincoln 31:22

line 14:11 51:7

line-of-duty 27:23

31:9

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medics 40:4

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medical 43:3 51:11

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MSFA 14:6

muddied 49:25

multiple 15:11

multitude 27:20

municipality 13:15

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municipality's 24:9

needs 25:22 27:14

32:19 33:4 39:10

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39:12

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22:12

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offer 15:8,17 34:17

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