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DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS  
BUREAU OF COMMUNITY AND HEALTH SYSTEMS  
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Public Hearing  
Wednesday, August 7, 2019  
3:00 P.M.  
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Present From Department of  
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16 Ms. Karen Krzanowski  
Mr. Mark Jansen  
17 Ms. Sharon Riebel  
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19 Court Reporter: Timothy J. Boroski, RPR, CSR-2378  
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INDEX  
____________________________________________________________  
Wednesday, August 7, 2019  
PAGE  
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Opening Statement by Ms. Krzanowski  
Opening Statement by Mr. Jansen  
Opening for Public Comment  
Comments by Ajano Perry  
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Comments by Elizabeth Weston  
Comments by Sue Beckett  
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Comments by Karen Eshenaur  
Closing by Ms. Krzanowski  
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INDEX OF EXHIBITS  
____________________________________________________________  
EXHIBIT  
DESCRIPTION  
MARKED  
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(NO EXHIBITS MARKED)  
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Lansing, Michigan  
August 7, 2019  
3:00 p.m.  
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P R O C E E D I N G S  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: We're going to call the  
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Hearing together.  
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Good afternoon. My name is Karen Krzanowski.  
I am manager of the Legislative Reporting, Rules  
Training & FOIA section, within the Bureau of Community  
Health Systems, in the Department of Licensing and  
Regulatory Affairs.  
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This hearing regarding Licensing Child Care  
Centers is being called to order at 3 o'clock p.m. on  
August 7th, 2019, at the Library of Michigan and  
Historical Museum, and this is the Forum Auditorium,  
located at 702 West Kalamazoo Street in Lansing,  
Michigan.  
The hearing is being conducted under the  
authority of the Administrative Procedures Act, Public  
Act 306 of 2019 -- excuse me -- of 1969.  
The notice of public hearing was published in  
three newspapers. On July 23, 2019, in the Marquette  
Mining Journal, and on July 24, 2019, it was published in  
the Jackson Citizen Patriot and the Grand Rapids Press.  
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The same notice was published in the Michigan Register on  
August 1st, 2019.  
As stated in the notice, the proposed rule  
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revisions are being promulgated as a result of recent  
amendments to Public Act 116 of 1973, which is commonly  
known as the Child Care Licensing Act, and new  
requirements of the federal Child Care and Development  
Block Grant.  
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A Regulatory Impact Statement is available for  
further explanation of this ruleset. Copies are  
available in the hall up the steps just outside of this  
auditorium, or they can be found on the website for the  
Michigan Office of Administrative Hearings and Rules.  
Pursuant to section 45 of the Administrative  
Procedures Act, MCL 24.245, the public hearing is an  
opportunity for the public to present data, views,  
questions, and arguments regarding the proposed rules.  
The Department will use the testimony and  
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documents presented at this hearing to determine if any  
changes should be made to the proposed rules before they  
are adopted.  
If you have comments, please make sure that  
they relate directly to the proposed rules.  
If you have questions regarding the rules,  
please submit your questions as part of your testimony  
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for the Department's review.  
If you have suggested changes to the proposed  
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rules, please include the specific reasons why the  
changes would be in the public interest.  
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If you wish to comment -- excuse me -- if you  
wish to comment, please complete a white card, they're  
available at the desk just outside the Forum Auditorium,  
and submit your card to me. I'll be sitting here at the  
front table. You can hand your card to me at any time.  
Written statements can also be submitted  
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directly to me. The Department will accept written  
statements emailed or postmarked until 5 o'clock p.m. on  
Thursday, August 8, 2019. That's tomorrow.  
Address information can be found in the Notice  
of the Public Hearing which is also available at the  
table out front.  
If you would like to testify and have not  
completed a card, please do so now. I'll mention that I  
only have two cards currently. So if you haven't turned  
in your card, please do so.  
The department staff from the Bureau of  
Community and Health Systems include me, Sharon Riebel --  
Do you want to raise your hand Sharon?  
-- who is the Child Care Program Consultant;  
and Mark Jansen here who is the Director of the Child  
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Care Licensing Division.  
Before we start public comments, I invite Mark  
Jansen to the podium.  
MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Karen. Thanks to  
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everybody for coming. I know it takes a lot of energy  
and a lot of time out of your lives to come here today.  
So we thank you for coming this afternoon.  
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My name is Mark Jansen. I am the Child Care  
Licensing Division Director within the Bureau of  
Community Health Systems within the Department of  
Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, also known as LARA to  
many of you.  
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Today's hearing on the proposed new ruleset is  
for child care licensing in child care centers. This  
project was initiated by the department about two years  
ago. The purpose of the project is to identify the core  
principles and the standards of child care licensing and  
then conduct a comprehensive review and update of all the  
child care center licensing rules.  
The goal is to replace the current ruleset with  
an updated ruleset for the child care licensing for the  
centers that will accomplish the following seven  
objectives:  
Fulfill statutory requirements for  
rulemaking.  
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Enable the department and child care  
providers in the centers to focus on a core set of  
principles and standards for child care licensing  
and regulation.  
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Comport with the current practice  
standards.  
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Harmonize the rules with federal law and  
regulations.  
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Be uniform insofar as is reasonable.  
That is, the rules should be consistent across  
different types of child care providers, unless  
differences are necessary to fulfill statutory,  
medical, or structural requirements.  
Be free of unnecessary repetition of  
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federal and state statutory and regulatory language.  
And be free of obsolete and unnecessary  
rules.  
We think the proposed ruleset accomplishes  
these objectives.  
The project was designed to gather input from  
internal and external stakeholders from the very  
beginning of this process.  
An ad hoc committee was formed based on Public  
Act 116 of 1973. It included five representatives from  
the Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, one  
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from the Department of Education, two from the Department  
of Health and Human Services, and one from the Michigan  
Association for the Education of Young Children.  
We also appreciated the expertise of six  
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representatives of child care centers from around the  
state who also gave their time and energy away from their  
businesses to help us review and revise the rules for the  
child care centers.  
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The rules apply to child care centers,  
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approximately 4,400 child care centers providing care to  
children in the state of Michigan.  
In order to have input from these providers,  
the department identified stakeholders, reviewed comments  
submitted since 2014 by interested parties, and invited  
them to participate in the project by contacting Child  
Care Licensing, our Division.  
The department held four meetings with the  
providers and stakeholders.  
Five versions of the draft rules were  
circulated to stakeholders for review and comment. And  
the proposed rules reflect that input.  
We look forward to hearing from your comments  
today. And we thank you again for your participation.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: We will now begin the public  
comment time frame. If you are handing in written  
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comments, feel free to summarize them and add your own  
comments. You do not need to read them aloud as they  
will become a part of the official record in their  
entirety.  
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Reminder that comments must pertain to the  
proposed rules.  
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The first card I have is from Ajano Perry,  
representing Schoolhouse Montessori Academy.  
If you would come down to this microphone.  
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Did you want to turn that microphone on at this  
time?  
Just be sure you speak clearly in the  
microphone. We are recording all of the testimony today.  
MS. PERRY: Can I say, well, what I have, or  
just what -- just --  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Whatever you're comfortable  
with.  
MS. PERRY: All right. My name is Ajano Perry.  
I'm from Schoolhouse Montessori Academy. I have a couple  
of questions and comments.  
Rule 400.8122, the lead caregiver  
qualifications and responsibilities. Sub Rule 6 and Sub  
Rule 8, lead caregivers have two years from date of hire  
to complete the 90 clock hours, or 90 hours for Michigan  
registry. The Sub Rule 8, a substitute lead caregiver  
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shall have 90 days to meet the qualifications of the lead  
caregiver.  
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As I read that rule, it looks like it's the sub  
rules are contradicting each other. Because it says lead  
caregivers have two years from date of hire. A  
substitute lead teacher caregiver have 90 days to meet  
the qualifications of the lead caregiver.  
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And another comment I want to make is about the  
Rule 400.8131, professional development requirements.  
Within 90 days of date of being hired, or the first day  
as an unsupervised volunteer, all child care staff  
members and nonsupervised volunteers should complete the  
following trainings, which is the CPR, first aid, within  
90 days of being hired. It's going to be a little  
difficult for the new hire to get done. That's my  
comment.  
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And the other one that I wanted to point out is  
the 400.8170, the outdoor play area and the shock  
absorbing surface material. My question will be is  
certified black playground mulch/wood chips considered as  
a loose fill type?  
And Rule 400.8182, ratio and group size  
requirements, Sub Rule 3c: Preschoolers, 37 to 48 months  
of age. That's Sub Rule 3c. Sub Rule 4 says children  
who have reached 33 months of age may, when  
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developmentally appropriate, be enrolled in a three-year-  
old classroom with written parental permission. The  
ratio listed in Sub Rules 3c applies.  
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The above rule is contradictory. Rule 3c says  
37 months and Rule 4 says 36 months, or three years of  
age.  
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And the other one that I would like to point  
out is the -- this will be a question. Rule 400.8188,  
sleeping, resting, and supervision. Rule -- Sub Rule 13  
says for children under age -- school age who do not  
sleep at rest time, quiet activities must be provided  
such as reading books or putting puzzles together.  
But my question will be, in our school we have  
four-years-old children. Are they -- is that  
considered -- the four-years-old also will be a part of  
that if they do not sleep during that time?  
So those are my comments.  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: Did you want to turn in a copy  
of your written comments as well?  
MS. AJANO: Sure.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Thank you.  
The only other card that I have is a person who  
said they might testify. They weren't sure. It's for  
Amanda Moorehouse from LHCH.  
Did you wish to testify?  
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MS. MOOREHOUSE: No.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: No? Okay.  
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Does anyone else wish to testify?  
MS. WESTON: I should have stayed down here;  
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shouldn't I?  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Go ahead. Thank you. Go  
ahead and speak up.  
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MS. WESTON: I'm Elizabeth Weston, Executive  
Director of EC3, representing Educational Child Care  
Center and Early LCC.  
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I echo several of the comments that my friend  
from Montessori made.  
The first is on Rule 400.8110, Section 6, about  
detailing the accurate daily records of arrival times and  
departure times for each child care staff member.  
I think this needs to be clarified because  
it -- as to whether the staff at the centers are clocking  
in and clocking out, or are we looking for that  
specificity of actual time worked? Or does it mean that  
we, that centers, need to be able to provide a schedule  
of when people were scheduled and then who was on?  
So just some clarification on what exactly that  
means would be helpful.  
Next is on Rule 400.8122, Section 8. As my  
colleague from Montessori stated, having a substitute  
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caregiver for -- a substitute teacher for a lead  
caregiver, giving them only 90 days to meet the  
qualifications of a lead is not enough time.  
Particularly in the current job market.  
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We are -- employees are hard to come by. We  
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have good candidates who can step into the position. And  
maybe a long term sub going -- stepping into the job, it  
will take more than 90. I would think maybe 180 days  
at -- at a minimum would be a better, a more reasonable  
time frame.  
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And lastly, Rule 400.8131, Section 10, I agree  
with my friend from Montessori that the requiring all  
child care staff to have their CPR and first aid  
certification within 90 days of hire puts an undue  
burden.  
I think at a minimum, again, six months, 180  
days, would be more reasonable. And if -- if you're  
going to require everyone to -- to do it. If you change  
the rules to be that only lead caregivers, or all full  
time staff, but not all staff in the center, then I think  
90 days is more reasonable. But, particularly for part  
time staff, some of them don't even stay 90 days.  
So those are my comments.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Thank you.  
Do we have anyone else who would like to  
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testify today?  
MS. BECKETT: I'm trying. I didn't know I had  
to have a rule number.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: You don't have to. Not  
necessarily.  
Did you fill out a white card?  
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MS. BECKETT: I was in the process.  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: Okay. Yep. Take your time.  
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Take your time. Don't rush.  
MS. BECKETT: Can I turn it in when I'm done?  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: When you're done, that's fine.  
MS. BECKETT: Okay. Hi. I'm Sue Beckett. I  
own Heavens Elect in Midland, Michigan. I also agree  
with some of the comments that there needs to be some  
clarification on those.  
I don't know how this forum works or do we --  
is it a discussion or is it just you listen and we talk  
and you do your thing.  
Okay. I'll see how this goes.  
So one of the questions we had is the ratio.  
Say the child is 37 to 48 months, at what point does the  
child become the next ratio? Is it at their birthday or  
is it the following month? So we would like  
clarification on that.  
And then we have, under the school age program,  
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and I'm sorry I don't have numbers, but young five's  
are -- we need to know whether a young five is considered  
a public school student or are they -- do they still fall  
under the day care rules for information and that kind of  
thing?  
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Under the volunteer, we have an organization  
which probably many of you just call ESA. And we have  
therapists that come from ESA to our facility to do  
therapy on children.  
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And it's our understanding that we are  
responsible to get their fingerprints and clock them in,  
clock them out.  
And my question is, why is that my  
responsibility, and do they not have those certifications  
working for ESA since they're for children?  
And if -- if the child is being clocked in and  
clocked out to go with the therapists, do I have to have  
a separate clock in/clock out, so to speak, for the  
therapist that comes from ESA?  
We have several of those. So I would like a  
clarification on that, please.  
Just on the bottle warmer for the babies. I'm  
having a difficult time finding a universal bottle  
warmer. And I have currently almost 20 babies and I do  
not have 20 outlets to plug in 20 bottle warmers.  
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So that -- that's -- I'm not there yet, but it's becoming  
a question mark whether that's even feasible.  
I also agree with the 90 days of asking  
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somebody to pay all the money for CPR, first aid, et  
cetera. One of my big concerns is the testing, or the  
education provided by the state that has many questions  
in there with, "What's your day care's policy on, blah,  
blah, blah?" And it did not work for me, and they --  
they don't know, and they don't know how to answer those  
questions.  
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My next concern under the education, is that  
going to be free? Is that going to continue to be free?  
And then what are we to do when you have people who  
cannot pass that test?  
I have a lady whose worked for me forever and  
she has dementia. And I'm her only thing that's holding  
her together right now. And she does nothing for me but  
wash dishes and fold laundry, but yet she's required to  
pass that test, and she can't.  
So am I -- do I fire her? Do I say she can't  
work anymore? So that's a concern for me.  
What else do we have? And on the testing  
provided by the state, does that qualify us for our  
bloodborne pathogen training, or do we still have to do  
our additional bloodborne pathogen training?  
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Under the food storage. The question I have  
for that is, if the food is in a container, like in big  
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cans of green beans and corn, can that set on a pallet on  
the floor, or does everything have to be up on a shelf?  
Because I've run out of storage room.  
I think I'm done.  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: Thank you.  
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MS. BECKETT: Uh-huh.  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: Did you wish to turn in any  
written comments or --  
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MS. BECKETT: I -- I may.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: You're welcome to.  
MS. BECKETT: Thank you.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Okay. Thank you.  
Is there anyone else wishing to testify today?  
Thank you.  
MS. ESHENAUR: Thank you.  
My name is Karen Eshenaur. I'm the Executive  
Director of Lakeshore Little People's Place in Holland.  
And I, like the others, just have some questions.  
One is under Rule 400.8103. And that states  
that the new toddler definition is 13 through 30 months.  
Then on table 4, under the ratios, the toddler -- infants  
and toddlers are described as birth to 30 months. So  
there's a month discrepancy there.  
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And I would like the committee to definitely  
consider the toddler room and the spaces available. If  
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we add another month where they have to stay in a toddler  
room at that ratio, we're going to have a tremendous  
backup of our kids with such limited space for that age  
group already.  
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Then, let's see here, Rule 400.8112. It says  
an individual may serve as a child care staff member  
pending an eligibility determination by the department,  
and shall be supervised at all times by the licensee, or  
a child care staff member who has been determined  
eligible.  
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That seems to contradict Rule 400.8125, which  
says all staff members and volunteers shall receive a  
public sex offender registry clearance before having any  
contact with a child care -- with a child in care. A  
copy of the clearance must be kept on file. That now is  
all a part of the CCBC, the Child Care Background Check,  
the system.  
So all of that is done through the system now.  
So when you go through that system and enter in and you  
have to search the child care registry, is finding them  
and saying no report found satisfy that rule, and, if so,  
how can we print? There's nothing to print at that point  
before eligibility is given. Does that make sense?  
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AMY WALTER: Just to let you know, those are  
two actual separate things.  
I'm sorry, Amy Walter.  
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Just to clarify for you, those are actually two  
separate systems. And the public sex offender registry  
is actually a free registry. Any person can get online  
and actually go look it up.  
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MS. ESHENAUR: Right. So do they want us doing  
it through both is the question?  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: Just to clarify, we will not  
be answering questions at this point. We're accepting  
questions and we will be reviewing them.  
And, Mark, did you want to make any comment?  
Were you planning to respond to questions or --  
MR. JANSEN: I'm not going to respond to  
questions, but I love hearing them, because we will  
respond to them. We'll just figure out the best way.  
Probably the Listserv and we'll be doing things like  
that. We're going to do trainings out in the field. So  
a lot of your questions are going to get answered  
face-to-face.  
This is great, though. So this gets us  
prepared for how we have to handle getting some of that  
information and probably fixing a few things as well.  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Thank you.  
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MS. ESHENAUR: And I think others have covered  
my other questions, so --  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Did you want to turn anything  
in writing?  
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MS. ESHENAUR: No.  
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MS. KRZANOWSKI: No. Okay. Thank you.  
That was our last speaker.  
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It's not quite 3:30. So I would propose that  
we take a 15 minute break just to give others who maybe  
are -- maybe are caught on the road, or trying to get  
here, give them a little bit more time.  
And then we'll reconvene. And if anyone wants  
to testify then, we'll stay and until no one else is  
wanting to testify.  
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So it's 3:30 now. We'll just adjourn until  
3:45 and then come back.  
You're welcome to come back or not. It's up to  
you.  
Okay. Thank you.  
(Off the record at 3:30 p.m., back on the  
record at 3:45 p.m.)  
MS. KRZANOWSKI: Okay. It's 3:45, so we'll  
reconvene for final remarks.  
I would like to thank everyone for their  
comments today. Each comment will be reviewed and  
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evaluated by the Bureau as well as the comments received  
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by mail or electronically during the open comment time,  
which ends tomorrow at 5:00 p.m.  
Seeing there are no other public comments, we  
will adjourn.  
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Thank you.  
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(Proceedings concluded at 3:46 p.m.)  
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER  
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4 (STATE OF MICHIGAN)  
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SS  
6 (COUNTY OF EATON )  
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I hereby certify that on the date and at the place  
hereinbefore set forth, I reported stenographically the  
proceedings held in the matter hereinbefore set forth;  
and that the testimony so recorded was subsequently  
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transcribed under my direction and supervision, and that  
the foregoing is a full, true and accurate transcript of  
my original stenotype notes.  
17 Dated: August 15th, 2019  
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________________________________  
Timothy J. Boroski, RPR, CSR-2378  
Notary Public in and for the County  
of Eaton, Acting in the County of  
Ingham  
22 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:  
October 30, 2024  
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;