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STATE OF MICHIGAN  
DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS  
BUREAU OF PROFESSIONAL LICENSING  
-   -   -  
PUBLIC HEARING   
Thursday, July 16, 2020  
at about 1:00 p.m.  
-   -   -  
HELD on-line via ZOOM  
      under Executive Order 2020-132  
 
-   -   -  
Re:             Social Work - General Rules     
 
HEARING FACILITATOR:  
     Dena Marks   
     Bureau of Professional Licensing  
     611 West Ottawa Street  
     Lansing, Michigan  48909  
 
Also Present:   
     Kerry Ryan Przybylo  
     LeAnn Payne  
 
 
Transcribed By:  Marie T. Schroeder    
       P. O. Box 1313   
                 Walled Lake, Michigan  48390  
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July 16, 2020   
1:00 p.m.   
-   -   -  
DENA MARKS:  Good morning.  My name is  
Dena Marks and I am an analyst for the Bureau of  
Professional Licensing in the Department of Licensing and  
Regulatory Affairs, and I will be conducting the hearing  
today.  
This is a public hearing on proposed  
administrative rules entitled  "Social Work - General  
Rules."  We are conducting the hearing as required by the  
Administrative Procedures Act to allow the public to  
comment on the proposed changes to this rule set.  As  
with all other public hearings on draft rule sets, the  
only items discussed during this hearing will be the  
proposed changes to the rule sets.  This hearing will not  
be covering any questions or discussions on any other  
issues.  
We are calling this hearing to order at  
1:00 p.m. on July 16, 2020, via Zoom under Executive  
Order 2020-132 in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.  The  
notice of public hearing was published in three  
newspapers of general circulation, the Grand Rapids Press  
and the Flint Journal on July 5, 2020, and the Mining  
Journal on July 3, 2020, as well as in the Michigan  
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Register, Issue 12-2020, published on July 15, 2020.  
All comments should relate directly to  
the proposed rules.  If you have questions about the  
rules, you may place your comments on the record and the  
Department will review and consider them.  If you have  
suggested changes to the proposed rules, please indicate  
the specific reasons why the changes would be in the  
public interest.  
We will take comments in the following  
manner:  For those of you using the video conference  
portion, not calling on a telephone, please use the  
"Raise Your Hand" feature in Zoom.  I will call on  
individuals to speak and they will be unmuted at that  
time.  For participants that are available only by  
telephone, we will ask if you wish to make a comment  
after the video participants have finished.  If you have  
a comment but do not wish to speak, please note that the  
Department will also accept written comments e-mailed or  
postmarked to the Board of Professional Licensing.  
E-mails may be sent to BPL-BoardSupport@Michigan.gov  
until 5:00 p.m. today.   
Those making comments should clearly and  
slowly say and spell your name and advise if you are  
speaking on behalf of an organization.  We will limit  
comments to three minutes per person.  Please remember  
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that only one person should speak at a time.  
The Bureau staff with me here today are  
Kerry Przybylo and LeAnn Payne.  
If there is anyone now who wishes to make  
comments on the Social Work - General Rules, please  
indicate by raising your hand on the function.  
(Pause.)  
Is there anyone joining by phone that  
would like to make a comment at this time?  If so, hit *6  
and your phone will be unmuted.  
(Pause.)  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Dena, I am not seeing  
anybody that is raising their hand or showing an  
indication that they wish to make a comment about the  
rule sets.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  If there are no  
persons who wish to speak at this time, we will take a  
short recess.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  I think what we'll do  
is, it's 1:04, I think we will keep the hearing open for  
another, I don't know, we'll wait until about 1:30 to see  
if anybody else has a comment.  So if you have a comment,  
please feel free to make it.  If we don't have any  
comments by 1:30, we will adjourn the hearing.  
(Pause.)  
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KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Dena, somebody is asking  
in the chat if we could post, post a copy of the rules in  
the chat.  Do you have a copy of those available?  
DENA MARKS:  I have them available but I  
don't know how to post them.  If I sent them to you, can  
you --  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Yes.  Go right ahead.  
LeANN PAYNE:  You can e-mail them to me  
too, Dena.  Either way.  
DENA MARKS:  O.K.  They're on their way,  
LeAnn.  
LeANN PAYNE:  It's amazing how slow the  
computer has been lately at home.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Here too.  I'm having  
problems, lots of problems.  
LeANN PAYNE:  Yes, it freezes on me.  
DENA MARKS:  I included Kerry so I don't  
know which one you will get it.  Whoever gets it first.  
LeANN PAYNE:  That's fine.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Dena, are they in the  
public hearing, template hearing folder on the S Drive,  
the 6-26-20?  Is that the version?  Yes?  O.K.  I'm just  
going to the S Drive to find it, so we'll see.  
O.K.  I've uploaded the rule set.  You  
should all be able to see it in the chat.  (Pause.)  
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You're welcome.  
DUANE BREIJAK:  Hey, Kerry, this is Duane  
from NASW.  Thank you for sending over that copy.  I just  
was a little bit -- why I posted that in there is, in the  
public notice that went, the link around electronic  
copies, that maybe actually goes to an older version, so  
I don't know if that matters in terms of your public  
notice.  But when I pulled that up, it brought up an old  
version.  So I was freaking out a little bit internally,  
like, oh, no, what happened to all the work we all talked  
about?  So I am glad that the one that you sent over is  
the correct one.  But just a heads up, at least the PDF  
public notice is an incorrect link.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Thank you.  The PDF  
notice went right to the ARS, so at least it should have  
been, so I'm not sure what -- what it was.  
DENA MARKS:  I'm going to look at that  
real quick, Kerry.  I'm not sure, Kerry, what the -- or  
the public notice that I pulled up on the ARS shows the  
June 26 version.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Yes.  I don't  
understand.  Some people say they are not able to open  
it, so I'm trying to try and send the PDF and see if I  
can upload that.  
It would just happen to be that I'm  
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having trouble with my Adobe today.  So let me...  
O.K.  I uploaded the PDF version of the  
rules.  So for those of you that were having issues  
opening the Word document, I have opened up, or I have  
sent the PDF.  Hopefully that will assist.  
LeANN PAYNE:  Kerry, do you see the  
message asking if, somebody posted and asked if that  
version was correct.    
DENA MARKS:  My version is not a draft  
version.  Duane, I do link to the June 26th when I click  
on yours.  
LeANN PAYNE:  And Kenneth cannot open it.  
DUANE BREIJAK:  That's interesting, Dena.  
I don't know why that would bring up a different file for  
each of us.  
DENA MARKS:  What does it say on yours?  
DUANE BREIJAK:  So it's a version that I  
bring up when I click on that link.  Let me go to the top  
of it real quick.  It says --  
DENA MARKS:  Oh, I see.  Your link took  
me to the public notice.  
DUANE BREIJAK:  Yes.  
DENA MARKS:  Then the public notice has a  
link to the original rule set.  
DUANE BREIJAK:  Yes, that's what it says.  
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DENA MARKS:  So it's on the public  
notice, it's not from the official, at the official site.  
Thanks, Duane.  
DUANE BREIJAK:  No problem.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  There are people asking  
if we can do a screen-share of the rules.  So what I'm  
going to do is share my screen, Dena.  And I guess we'll  
just take it rule by rule and go through them so people  
have a chance to quickly review and provide comment.  
DENA MARKS:  O.K.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  All right.  All right.  
Can you see my screen?  
DENA MARKS:  Yes.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  And does it say it's the  
Social Work Rules?   
DENA MARKS:  Yes.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  O.K.  So now I can't see  
anything.  
DENA MARKS:  I can see it, Kerry.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  O.K.  All right.  So the  
first rule that is in the set is Rule 338.2921.  This is  
in Part 1 of the general provisions.  It is just a  
definition section, and you can see that there were some  
definitions clarified or added.  
Are there any comments on this rule?  
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(Pause.)  
O.K.  All right.  Now I paused my screen  
sharing.  I don't know what happened here.  Can you still  
see it?  
DENA MARKS:  Yes.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  O.K.  All right.  So  
we're going to move on.  I don't see any comments or hear  
any comments, so we're going to move on to the next rule,  
which is 2923.  This is Educational Standards.  See if I  
can make this bigger.  Educational Standards, adoption by  
reference.  Dena, you want to chime in?  
DENA MARKS:  Sure.  You know, let me  
bring up another version so I can follow along in a  
version too.  So this is updating the accreditation  
standards, they've just updated some of those.  There's  
also some additional information that updated as far as  
the citation format and the links to those websites where  
the information could be obtained.  All of the  
intermediate accreditation bodies in sub rule 4 have been  
eliminated.  Those were all included in the standards, in  
the accreditating bodies that are referenced above.  So  
those changes just eliminate something that's already  
included when we're talking about CEA and the Department  
of Education accreditation.  
Are there any comments about that rule?  
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(Pause.)  
All right, Kerry.  I think that we can go  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  O.K.  338.2925,  
down to page 2.  
Examination, Adoption and Staff Reports.  
DENA MARKS:  Sorry.  Robin Simpson, you  
have a comment?  Ms. Simpson?  If you're calling in,  
Robin, you'll need to *6.  
MS. SIMPSON:  Can you hear me?  
DENA MARKS:  Yes.  
MS. SIMPSON:  O.K.  I'm sorry.  Back to  
Part 1 regarding supervisory review.  It says, means  
individually meeting with a supervisor or in a group  
modality.  Do you think it's necessary to indicate that  
the supervisor has to be an LMSW?  The reason I ask is  
because I get a lot of questions from people trying to  
get supervision from licensed counselors and  
psychologists, and I always of course refer them to you  
because I don't know if you're going to make an  
exception.  But I think it might be helpful to put that  
in there.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Robin, can you please  
tell us what rule you're talking about?  
MS. SIMPSON:  Oh, I'm sorry.  It is  
333.1108.  Letter c, under Part 1, under General  
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Provisions, under Definitions.  
DENA MARKS:  I believe you're referring  
to 338.2921?  
MS. SIMPSON:  Correct.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  And could you  
identify your association, Robin?  
MS. SIMPSON:  I work for Michigan CE  
Collaboration in NASW Michigan.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Are there any  
other comments regarding Rule 21 or Rule 23?  
LeANN PAYNE:  This is LeAnn from BPL.  
You can raise your hand and make comments?  Or if you're  
on your phone, just go ahead and speak, please.  
DENA MARKS:  And to speak by phone you  
probably need to hit *6.  
Kerry, if you could move your screen  
share down so page 2 shows so they can review the rest of  
2923, please.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  I'm doing that.  Can you  
see that?  
DENA MARKS:  No.  
Emily Dixon, would you like to speak now?  
And if you are calling on behalf or representing an  
association or an employer, if you could identify them as  
well, please.  
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MS. DIXON:  Hi.  I am a Professor at  
Spring Arbor University.  I also serve as a board member  
on the CE Collaborative.  I would just like to second  
what Robin was saying in regard to the definition  
section.  I know that later on supervisor is defined and  
the LMSW piece is discussed, but I think that having it  
here at the beginning in your definition section would be  
very helpful in alleviating people having to dig through  
the rules later.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you, Robin.  I'm  
sorry, could you again identify your school?  
MS. DIXON:  Emily Dixon, Spring Arbor  
University.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Any other  
comments regarding Rule 21 or Rule 23?  
Seeing no additional comments, we will go  
on then to Rule 25.  In Rule 25 some changes were made to  
correctly identify the examinations that are administered  
by the ASWB in that rule.  And to clarify that the  
passing score is what the ASWB has identified as passing  
score.  And then an alternative exam could be okayed by  
the board if the board finds it substantially equivalent.  
Any comments regarding Rule 25?  
(Pause.)  
I'm not seeing any.  Do you, LeAnn?  
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LeANN PAYNE:  I do not.  And I would --  
you can put it in the chat box if you'd like to speak and  
we will call on you as well.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you, LeAnn.  In Rule  
29 there were some misnumbering things done in subsection  
1c.  Those have been corrected.  The dates have been  
clarified for compliance with the human trafficking  
training that is required for all health professionals  
just so that the applicant will know when he or she must  
comply.  
Any comments regarding that rule or any  
of the changes to Rule 29?  Robin.  
MS. SIMPSON:  Yes.  I would like to again  
advocate to make this a requirement every three years  
rather than a one time only training.  The face of human  
trafficking changes every day, and I think it's very  
important that social workers are current on what to look  
for and what to report, how to report.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Any other  
comments?  Thank you.  
Rule 30 is a new rule for telehealth  
services.  This is a rule that's required under Public  
Health Code.  The telehealth services are provided by  
statute, and by statute the board is required to enact  
promulgated rules.  So this rule would instruct a social  
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service technician or a social worker that they must  
obtain a consent before providing it, they must work  
within the scope of his or her practice, exercise the  
same standard of care applicable to a traditional  
in-person service, and ensure that the technology method  
used complies with all of the current public/privacy  
protection laws with respect to providing a telehealth  
service.  
Are there any comments regarding Rule 30?  
(Pause.)  
Moving on then.  We're looking at Rule  
31.  In Rule 31, the rule has been modified so that the  
two years in sub part 1a is described to show that that  
was intended to be full-time schooling so that the  
technician would be, the technician would have  
successfully completed 60 semester or 90 credit hours in  
a college meeting the standards that have been adopted by  
the board.  
LeANN PAYNE:  Dena.  
DENA MARKS:  Yes?  
LeANN PAYNE:  Kenneth Sherman in chat  
says:  What kind of consent, verbal or written?  
DENA MARKS:  Kenneth, are you  
representing a school or an association?  If you'd like  
to speak and you're on your phone, just hit *6.  
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MR. SHERMAN:  Can you hear me?  
DENA MARKS:  Yes, thank you.  
MR. SHERMAN:  All right.  Sorry, I was  
muted.  I wondered on that, the social worker or  
technician must get consent for telehealth, you don't  
specify, unless it's specified somewhere else, what kind  
of consent, which is why I indicated:  Is it written  
and/or verbal consent?  I think that needs to be  
clarified.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Are you  
representing anyone, Kenneth?  
MR. SHERMAN:  I'm retired, but I do some  
work for NASW, but really myself.  
DENA MARKS:  O.K.  Thank you.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  You know, Robin has a  
question.  
DENA MARKS:  Robin, go ahead.  
MS. SIMPSON:  No, I don't have a  
question.  
DENA MARKS:  Your hand is up so I need to  
lower your hand.  
MS. SIMPSON:  O.K.  I will.  How do I  
take that off?  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  You're all set.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Are there any  
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other comments regarding the telehealth rules?  Or Rule  
31 about the clarifying the education required?  
(Pause.)  
All right, Rule 33.  Previously it  
referred the applicant back to the statute.  
Unfortunately the statute is not exactly a model of  
clarity as to what's required.  So we clarified in this  
rule what is actually required under that statute for an  
applicant to be considered for registration as a social  
service technician.  In that rule we also clarified that  
they must be supervised by a Michigan licensed bachelor's  
or Michigan licensed Master's of Social Work in 3, and we  
clarified some of the work experience requirements in 4.  
Emily Dixon, would you like to speak?  
MS. DIXON:  Going back up to subsection  
3.  It talks about the completion of an associated  
degree, and this actually speaks to something I was going  
to comment on when it talked about bachelor and master  
level.  But I think the word completion of degree is  
better than graduate because applicants get very confused  
about graduate meaning they have had graduation, as in a  
ceremony, versus completed their degree and their final  
transcripts are available.  
DENA MARKS:  I'm sorry, Emily.  I'm not  
sure which rule you're referring to.  Can you clarify  
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that for me, please.  
MS. DIXON:  Yes.  It's the next page up  
that you were at.  Right there.  
DENA MARKS:  In Rule 31?  
MS. DIXON:  Yes.  On c, on the bottom.  
So Rule 33, it looks like c, it says successful  
completion of an associate degree.  
DENA MARKS:  Yes.  
MS. DIXON:  And I think completion is a  
better word than graduate which is used later on in  
speaking to bachelor and master level degrees.  But it's  
not consistent, I guess is another comment.  It says  
completion of degree here, and then further in advanced  
degrees it says graduate.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Are there any  
other comments regarding Rule 33?  
MS. MAYCOMBER:  This is Cathy Maycomber.  
I am -- I'm going to be representing myself as opposed to  
Saginaw Valley State University in making these comments,  
just because I don't want to speak for the university.  
But in regards to Rule 33, subsection 3, when it talks  
about the Michigan licensed Master's social worker, is it  
necessary to indicate that it could be either a clinical  
or a macro specialty?  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Any other  
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comments regarding Rule 33?  
(Pause.)  
All right.  I think we have gotten that  
one then.  Let's take a look at Rule 35.  This is  
registration by endorsement.  So rule 2 was clarified  
that if an applicant holds a valid registration in good  
standing from another state and has been actively engaged  
in the practice of social work technician for a minimum  
of ten years before the date of application for Michigan  
registration, it's presumed that the applicant meets the  
requirements for registration in Michigan.  
And in subsection 3 it indicates that if  
they have been registered for less than ten years, then  
they shall meet the requirements for registration under  
Rule 33.  
Any comments about that rule and Rule 35?  
(Pause.)  
LeANN PAYNE:  I'm not seeing any, Dena.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you, LeAnn.  Let's  
move on to Rule 39.  
MS. DIXON:  Oh, this is Robin.    
DENA MARKS:  Yes, Robin.  
MS. SIMPSON:  I'm sorry I clicked in a  
little too late.   
DENA MARKS:  That's O.K.    
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MS. SIMPSON:  When you say registration,  
what does registration mean?  Does that mean getting a  
license from LARA?  Or do they refer to that now as a  
registration?  
DENA MARKS:  Are you looking at Rule 35?  
MS. SIMPSON:  Yes, I believe so.  Yes, at  
the top of page 7 here.  Hold a valid registration.  Then  
you go on.  It says if the applicant meets certain  
requirements, and if an applicant holds a valid  
registration -- then they get a Michigan registration.  
Are you referring to them having, I'm using air quotes, a  
registration?  
DENA MARKS:  This rule --  
MS. SIMPSON:  -- a license number  
assigned to them?  
DENA MARKS:  This rule is relating to  
people applying by reciprocity.  
MS. SIMPSON:  O.K.  
DENA MARKS:  Does that --  
MS. SIMPSON:  Yes, that's what it's  
referring to.  But I'm just curious, if somewhere maybe  
registration should be defined for the technician  
license.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Is there any  
other comments?  
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(Pause.)  
All right.  Thank you, Robin.  Let's move  
on then to Rule 39.  In Rule 39 we are starting with the  
bachelor social work requirements.  We're trying to  
clarify for the applicant for the limited bachelor social  
worker license, the limitations on accumulation of  
supervised work experience and the limitations on the  
renewal of the limited license.  So the changes are, that  
are made here, are all attempting to make those clear so  
that a person accumulating those work experience hours,  
giving that license to do that so that they will  
understand what's required and what's permitted.  
Emily Dixon, would you like to make a  
comment about Rule 39?  
MS. DIXON:  On Rule 39, subsection b,  
this goes back to what I was saying earlier, but it  
changed graduation to have graduated.  I would recommend  
a better word might be completion of or something along  
the lines of completion versus graduating.  That is very  
confusing for recent grads who are wanting to apply  
immediately for a limited license but they have to wait  
until they walk in a graduation ceremony, things of that  
nature.  
DENA MARKS:  Are there any other  
comments?  
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LeANN PAYNE:  I'm not seeing any, Dena.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  All right.  
Let's move on then to Rule 41.  Rule 41 is for bachelor  
of social work license by examination, the educational  
requirements, and the supervised work experience  
requirements.  There's clarification made in 3b that the  
supervisor must be a Michigan licensed master social  
worker.  
MS. MAYCOMBER:  This is Cathy Maycomber  
again, again speaking on my own behalf.  I would also  
have the same comment here as I had for the technician  
regarding the Master's social work license with both  
macro and clinical endorsement.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Any other  
comments?  
MS. MAYCOMBER:  I apologize again.  This  
is Cathy Maycomber.  Is there, in noting the examination  
approved pursuant to R338.2925 -- and I apologize for not  
looking at this already, but is there some indication  
there of the ASWB rules for completing the, or completing  
the examination after the four thousand hours?  
DENA MARKS:  Are there any other  
comments?  I don't see any additional ones.  
Let's move on then to Rule 43.  This is  
licensure by endorsement.  So these again would be the  
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folks applying by reciprocity.  It's clarified that the  
Board has determined under part b, I'm sorry, Part 2 that  
the applicant who holds an active license in good  
standing from another state and been actively engaged in  
the practice of bachelor of social worker for a minimum  
of ten years before the date of application for Michigan  
licensure, it's presumed that the applicant meets the  
requirements.  So no additional, no additional  
information would need to be shown.  
Under 3, these are for the folks then who  
do not have that, they don't satisfy the sub rule 2, so  
those that have been licensed less than ten years.  Then  
it shows the information that they would have to comply  
with.  
Under part 3c you can see that those  
applicants can satisfy the minimum of four thousand hours  
by using supervised work experience, work experience, or  
both at the bachelor's level.  Any comments regarding  
Rule 43?  
(Pause.)  
All right.  Let's take a look then at  
Rule 45, please.  This is re-licensure.  Those are folks  
who have been licensed at some point in Michigan and then  
let their license lapse.  The rule has been broken out  
into two parts, one for a bachelor social work license  
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applicant who has let their Michigan license lapse.  And  
the first one is, if they are not currently licensed in  
another state or Canada, the requirements for them to be  
re-licensed.  And so sub part b is for those who let  
their license lapse but are either currently practicing  
or currently licensed in another state or Canada.  And  
then the chart indicates what the requirements for each  
of those categories would be.  
Any comments regarding Rule 45?  (Pause.)  
I'm not seeing any.  Let's move on to  
Rule 47.  Rule 47 is for a master social worker for the  
limited license.  Again trying to clarify how they can  
accumulate the supervised work experience, the  
limitations on renewals, so that it is easier to comply  
with the requirements.  Additional information has been  
added to assist.  
Any comments regarding Rule 47?  (Pause.)  
I'm not seeing any.  Let's move on to  
Rule 49.  Rule 49 is for -- Thank you, Duane.  
Rule 49, we have additional information  
added to assist the master social worker licensee  
applicant for meeting the requirements necessary.  Some  
clarification in the sub rule 2 of that rule, to indicate  
how those rules are working together for those folks that  
are working on the macro or clinical or both.  
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Rule 51, for those applicants who want  
the macro designation, trying to clarify again what the  
experience is.  In sub part rule c, those four thousand  
hours experience, just clarification, the experience must  
be earned after completion of all the requirements for  
graduation as verified by the program.  The experience  
must be completed in compliance with the requirements of  
supervision, under the supervision of a Michigan licensed  
master social worker holding a macro designation.  
I'm not seeing any comments.  
Let's work then through Rule 53.  These  
are for the clinical applicants.  Again there's been  
clarification in sub part c just to let them know that  
that has to be done under the supervision of a Michigan  
licensed master social worker holding a clinical  
designation.  
All right.  Moving on, Rule 55, again  
these are re-licensure rules.  We broke them down into  
the two parts like we did in the section 4, re-licensure  
is a bachelor social worker, and the requirements for  
each one is set out.  
Rule 57 is the licensure by endorsement.  
Again these are the reciprocity applicants.  There is  
some clarification in sub parts 2 and 3, again based on  
the number of years they have been practicing in another  
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state and what the applicant can apply for as far as  
clinical or macro designation or both. (Pause.)  
I'm not seeing any comments regarding  
that.  Are you, LeAnn?  
LeANN PAYNE:  I am not, Dena.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Moving on to  
part 5 then, the continuing education.  It begins with  
Rule 61.  In Rule 61, some clarification in several of  
the rules.  Human trafficking was added in sub rule 4 so  
at least two of the 45 hours of CE must now be obtained  
in human trafficking.  (Pause.)  
LeANN PAYNE:  Dena, there is comment  
again from Ken Sherman.  
DENA MARKS:  Go ahead, Ken.  
MR. SHERMAN:  Hi.  I was just wondering  
as we're going through the CE, I know it's new, but the  
Governor on July 9th issued an order regarding a  
directive on the visit bias training for health care  
professionals.  So I wonder when or how that's going to  
come into play for social workers, looking forward.  
Thank you.  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  Mr. Sherman, this is  
Kerry Przybylo.  Those rules or those requirements are  
going to be added for every health profession.  And as  
you may know, we have a set of general rules for every  
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profession in the health, that's regulated by the Health  
Code.  And it will be placed in that rule set.  
MR. SHERMAN:  Will it be for continuing  
education credits?  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  I believe the directive  
was that it was for renewal, that you had to complete  
that for renewal.  So I don't believe it's going to be --  
it might be characterized more like the human trafficking  
for licensure requirement that we have, where it's  
required to get your license initially.  And I think  
for -- it'll be for a cycle for people who are renewing  
the first time after the order has been in place.  
It's still in early stages of  
development, and this is just my rough understanding of  
what is happening.  But in any event, the rules will be  
placed, the rules about that training will be placed in  
the Public Health Code General Rules.  
DENA MARKS:  Robin Simpson, you had a  
comment?  
MS. SIMPSON:  Yes, I just want to comment  
to Kenneth.  It could certainly qualify as a CE training  
if they need the continuing education requirements,  
because it will be part of the rules.  
DENA MARKS:  I'm sorry?  (Pause.)  
I'm sorry.  Someone else?  Emily, did you  
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have your hand raised as well?  Emily Dixon?  
MS. DIXON:  No.  My understanding is just  
that it would be a one time training, not on-going as  
part of renewal.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Are there any  
other comments regarding Rule 61?  
(Pause.)  
All right.  Let's take a look then at  
Rule 63.  This is the acceptable continuing education and  
the limitation.  A couple of rules have been added just  
to remind licensees they can't carry forward credits  
earned in one cycle and that they can't get credit for  
the same course twice within the same renewal cycle.  The  
acceptable continuing education under a, these are the  
programs that have been pre-approved by the Board at the  
ASWB.  Those offered -- I'm sorry.  Those approved by the  
National Association of Social Workers and by a State  
chapter of the NASW.  
Under sub part b, attendance of the  
academic course or a CE program offered by the school of  
social work has been separately listed in b.  C was not  
significantly modified except that it's a program that  
has been granted approval by another State board, so we  
eliminated the ASWB since all reference is now under part  
a.  D is presentation of a board approved CE program not  
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part of the licensee's regular job description.  And e is  
publication.  
And then because the pre-approved  
programs are all identified in the chart above, Rule 65  
would be rescinded.  
Kenneth, did you have a comment about  
Rule 65 or 63?  Kenneth Sherman, did you have a question?    
LeANN PAYNE:  I think he had a question.  
DENA MARKS:  Go ahead.  
MR. SHERMAN:  Hi.  I just had a question.  
We had previously talked about social workers being  
allowed from other states in good standing to practice in  
Michigan.  So as you're going through the discussion  
about CE credits, I just wondered:  Where do those social  
workers obtain their ongoing CE credits?  Is it from  
Michigan, from their home state, or both?  And where is  
that addressed, if it is?  
DENA MARKS:  Are you asking about what is  
currently happening under the Executive Order?  
MR. SHERMAN:  Yes, I guess I am.  
DENA MARKS:  O.K.  Those folks, that  
would be under the Executive Order, and we wouldn't  
really have rule promulgation authority for them.  So  
they would comply with their own licensing requirements.  
Does that answer your question?  
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MR. SHERMAN:  Yes, thank you.  
DENA MARKS:  You're welcome.  Now Duane,  
I think you had a comment?  
DUANE BREIJAK:  Yes, I just had a quick  
clarification.  It looks like there is a word missing in  
section b on the right-hand column.  It says one hour of  
continuing education contact hours may earned; I think  
there is just a "be" that should be there.  
DENA MARKS:  You are right.  Thank you.  
Let me just make a note of that, please.  
I'm sorry.  Someone else had a comment  
too and I have lost track of who that was.  
LeANN PAYNE:  It looks like a Alia just  
was greatly appreciating these clarifications.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you.  Alia, would you  
like to speak?  
MS. WESALA:  No need.  I actually  
commented on the previous version of the rules that was  
distributed, and I'm glad to see that the things I had  
concerns about were addressed and clarified in this  
version.  
DENA MARKS:  All right.  So are there any  
other comments regarding the Social Work General Rules at  
this time in any of the sections we have covered?  
LeANN PAYNE:  Duane has his hand up.  
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DENA MARKS:  Duane.  
DUANE BREIJAK:  Oh, sorry.  That was a  
hand up for the last one, but I might as well just -- I  
just want to thank you all, especially Dena, Kerry, and  
LeAnn, for your work on these rules for the Board of  
Social Work.  It's been really nice to work with you all  
to get some of those changes, and I think there's some  
pretty good ones in here.  
DENA MARKS:  Thank you, Duane.  
Kerry, should we go back into recess for  
a period of time?  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  No.  I think that we are  
good.  We'll just give it a few more moments, till about  
two.  It's another two minutes.  And if we don't have any  
comments at 2:00, we will close the hearing.  But if you  
have further comments to make after reviewing the draft,  
you may submit comments to BPL-BoardSupport@Michigan.gov  
before 5:00 o'clock today. (Pause.)  
KERRY PRZYBYLO:  O.K.  It is now 2:00  
o'clock.  With that, I don't see anybody else with their  
hand raised.  I'm scrolling through the pages.  So we  
will officially end this public hearing for the Board of  
Social Work General Rules.  Thank you very much for  
attending.  
(Off the record at 2:00 p.m.)  
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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER  
I, Marie T. Schroeder, do hereby certify  
that I transcribed the foregoing electronic/visual  
recorded hearing held in the above matters: In Re Social  
Work - General Rules, held via Zoom under Executive Order  
2020-132 in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, on  
Thursday, July 16, 2020; and do further certify that the  
foregoing transcript, consisting of 31 pages, is a true  
and correct transcript of said recording.  
 
 
Digitally signed by MarieT Schroeder  
DN: cn=MarieT Schroeder, o=Metro  
MarieT  
Court Reporters Inc, ou,  
email=metrostate@sbcglobal.net,  
c=US  
_S__c_h__r_o__e_d__e_r________________  
Date: 2020.07.29 08:45:38 -04'00'  
Marie T. Schroeder    
P. O. Box 1313   
Walled Lake, Michigan  48390  
248-360-8865  
 
 
;